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Froggy618157725
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#1
12-29-2006
Default The Nature of G_d

This thread is to end all of these "Well, where did he come from?" type questions. This thread is intended to explore the nature of G_d, starting from a purely logical perspective, if at all possible. We'll start with the simplest definition, and work from there. You can bring religious ideas in, of course, but back it up.

The starting definition: G_d is the underlying reality of existence.

G_d is the underlying reality to the universe. Everything that exists exists through G_d. At this point, the definition of G_d is so broad that is must be correct. Saying where would G_d come from is sorta like trying to install Halo PC on a computer in 1000 BC. It makes no sense. There is no outside or beyond G_d. Not even nothing exists independantly.

Now, if we define G_d as above, omnipresence and omnipotence are also given. What isn't given is the nature of G_d. Consciousness is guaranteed indirectly. We are conscious, we exist, existence is based upon G_d, therefore, in some form or another, G_d is conscious, if only in that we are.

Feel free to add to, challenge, or correct any of the above.

Now, as for my opinions of G_d based off of interpretations of personal experiances...

I believe that G_d is both conscious and actively involved in the universe in ways other than sustaining it according to laws atleast somewhat similar to the ones we've come up with. He seems to be quite fond of very intricate and elegant things, often with a touch of irony. I find karma inescapable, though I know that others don't experience the same thing, which leads me to my biggest problem with this train of thought: Why me, and not others?

Please try to separate your beliefs from facts, if at all possible. It's also helpful for you to justify your opinions by sharing a brief story of their origin.

Let the debate begin...
Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.
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#2
12-29-2006
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"God, protect me from your followers." Well, needless to say, it doesn't work, thereby providing concrete proof that God doesn't exist and that prayer doesn't work. And those who have squeaked through the supernatural protective net have expressed psychosis, which proves that religion creates it.

Some of the nutty messages received include the following. These comments are so generic and typical that they apply to basically any blind believer, with the emphasis on blind.

"Your time will come!" This remark could be taken two ways: The friendly interpretation is that someone is wishing me luck. The hateful interpretation is that I am being condemned to judgment by a monstrous god person.
"Eternity is a long time to be wrong!" All freethinkers have heard this retort, which is a more refined version of "You're going to hell!" This comment is psychotic, in that these blind believers believe there is a "loving" and "forgiving" god person who will hideously punish anyone who dares to question "his" existence. Obviously, we reject such an ugly concept, so this threat doesn't scare us. Also, what if YOU'RE wrong? You have condemned millions of people to hell in your thoughts and words, not to mention that, if you're a Christian, you believe the Jews are guilty of killing God! These are pretty heinous accusations, so you had better be sure that you're not wrong. Blind belief is not a win-win situation. Indeed, it is intellectually dishonest and harmful.
"When you die, you will meet your Maker and fall down on your knees before Jesus and ask His forgiveness." Ditto with the above. Why would the "omnipotent" Jesus and "His Father" be so threatened by our unbelief? Did "He/They" not provide us with intelligence? Yet, "He" wishes us to spit on "His" gift and not use it? This asinine comment also means that the hundreds of millions of Buddhists and others who don't believe in the Jewish godman are diabolical and will be severely punished. Those who subscribe to such bigotry are already living in hell.
"Have you read the Bible cover to cover?" Actually, I have, and the hypocrite who asks such a question obviously hasn't, because the Bible is full of dreadful stories about genocide, murder, adultery, incest, deceit, greed, arrogance, megalomania, sexual perversion, and all sorts of despicable behavior. On second thought, perhaps the people who ask such a question HAVE read the Bible, as we are sure it creates dementia.
"Who made you so angry?" This comment one is full of implications, and I could answer in a variety of ways. One favorite response is "Who made you so dumb?" But I could focus on the "made" part and say, "Well, God made me, so he must have made me angry." I could also point out that the question itself is extremely angry, and that those who see anger everywhere are themselves seething with anger but are repressing it and are thus not mentally balanced. Human beings SHOULD be angry, because their situation is atrocious. If there were such a god person directing everything, they should be very angry at "him," because this world is a mess and every day abominable things are happening to millions of people. Of course, the standard stupid response to this is that "God gave us free will." (See A Question of Free Will.)
"I'll pray for you!" This comment sounds like an alien language to freethinkers. It comes out something like this: "BZZZPPFFFFTTT." When interpreted, it becomes clear that the person who is making such a comment feels quite smug and superior in that he/she has chosen the RIGHT god, compared to whatever it is you do with your consciousness, such that he/she now has a direct pipeline, whereas you do not, and he/she will put in a good word for you, you lowlife scum. Since the concept of "God" is completely arbitrary, we could respond that we will pray to the Cosmic Mickey Mouse that our well-wishers become intelligent. Naturally, we are not talking about loved ones who make this heartfelt prayer comment in times of true trauma. We are addressing the condescending offer presented by missionaries and proselytizing fanatics who have never even met us but who feel they know we are sinners who need prayer to their "Father in heaven." Theirs is a rather unctuous and smarmy mentality.

Now, just in case you think I'm being a bit harsh in pronouncing these statements and sentiments psychotic, I offer up the following email--you decide. Do you truly want to live in a world dominated by this kind of mentality?

"Alas, your vile vulgarness comes out. It's obvious you and your mind belong to Satan. The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing. You are a very sad excuse of a human being. You babble about things you know nothing about. The Jews aren't Christkillers. Whoever told you that. Jesus died for all of us, so we all are Christkillers.... Whether or not you like it, or admit it, you were created by God, you will be judged by God, and you will be punished by God. You can play all the games you want to until that day of judgement, but it's coming."

To these loving, advanced concepts, I respond, "You and your mind obviously belong to Ahriman the Devil! Ahura-Mazda the Almighty will judge and punish you! My Persian boogeyman is bigger than your Judeo-Christian one! You barbarian with a bone in your nose! Ooga-booga!" Then I follow this with much saber-rattling, teeth-baring and chest-beating.

All of these comments reflect that the believer is angry, volatile, primitive, arrogant, mentally unbalanced and does not display critical thinking. Let us now spell it out:
If you believe there is an invisible giant man of a particular ethnicity in the sky who is directing everything and who is so hateful he will viciously punish us for challenging his existence--
If you believe that this invisible giant man got a 13-year-old virgin girl pregnant, who then gave birth to him as his own son--
If you believe that this god person wrote a book--and one book only--
If you believe that "confessing the Lord" will instantly remove your sins, thus allowing you to commit more--
If you believe that a stone will remove your sins, thus allowing you to commit more--
If you believe in vicarious blood-atonement, i.e., that "the Lord died for your sins" and thus you can commit as many as you wish--
If you believe that merely believing in such a god person makes you righteous, no matter what atrocities you commit and what hatred and intolerance you carry and spread--
If you believe that some "good" god person is going to reward you for killing living, breathing human beings "in his name"--
If you believe that going to church, temple, synagogue or mosque, making pilgrimages, or wearing particular clothes or headdresses, makes you a righteous person, even though you don't behave like one otherwise--
If you believe that you are special and chosen because of what you believe--
If you believe that it is good to mindlessly go along with whatever anyone tells you about the nature of God and religion--
If you believe that believing in one God makes you better than and superior to those who don't--

You are not displaying critical thinking, not using your mind. You are also uneducated as to the world's cultures and history. It is not a sign of great intelligence to blindly believe what someone else has told you is true, especially when such beliefs basically condemn hundreds of millions of other people. Many of these blind believers are simply not very bright, yet they assume that their belief equalizes them with those who are smarter. "Jesus loves you just the way you are!" is the hypocritical hue and cry of those who feel inferior but who will not recognize it and admit it. Yet, according to these same cheerleaders, Jesus DOESN'T love you just the way you are--you must thoroughly change, surrendering your mind and soul to him. A bit of a psychotic extortion racket.

The bottom line is that those who dare to question and challenge cherished beliefs which are not rational and reasonable, and who live relatively righteous lives without such irrational and intolerant beliefs, should be recognized as being the epitome of what any god person would wish in "his children." They are utilizing all of the gifts that such a god person would provide, were "he" real. And if they have utilized these "God-given" gifts, they know that the interpretation of "God" is a cultural artifact, not an absolute truth that must be defended and beaten into other people. In using these gifts, they will discover that over the millennia, hundreds of millions of people have held differing opinions as to the Infinite, which is only common sense, since it is, after all, Infinite.

Humans need to lighten up! Their gods and religions are dreary, humorless, wrathful, intolerant, oppressive and generally unpleasant. There is no love, no joy, no fun! Humans are under the dominion of ideologies that are slowly but surely killing them. They need to release them and be free! No one is going to punish them for enjoying life, and there is no point to living if they can't enjoy it. No good god person wants to see people stumbling around in dread seriousness, doing cockamamie rituals and constantly beating up themselves and others. Life is a joke. There is no purpose, so everyone is free to create his or her own, making it as amusing, joyous and scrupulous as possible.

Source- http://www.truthbeknown.com/proof.htm

Last edited by Socom; 12-30-2006 at 10:30 AM.
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#3
12-29-2006
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God cannot exist outside of the universe and then independently interact inside the universe, because any event happening in the universe (in any of the twisted theories of dimension) must be OF the universe.

The "universe" also incorporates ALL of existence, including the so-called "outside" places where God is supposed to reside. Therefore, the only logical explanation is either that the universe exists as itself, or that God is the universe.


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#4
12-29-2006
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very well thought out, but i wouldn't go as far to say that G_d is everywhere type thing. A better term would be to call him the natural energy of life, he created and sustained things here on Earth and nudged us in the right direction a couple of times (once was an almighty shove).

back to the question: "Where did G_d come from?"
>well if you use the notion that He is energy then he is, therefor, as you said above, omnipresent and also infintesimally existent in amount as well in time.
>IN ENGLISH: He has always been here and will be until the end of time---> which pops another big question as well, lol


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Froggy618157725
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#5
12-29-2006
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cursed Lemon View Post
God cannot exist outside of the universe and then independently interact inside the universe, because any event happening in the universe (in any of the twisted theories of dimension) must be OF the universe.

The "universe" also incorporates ALL of existence, including the so-called "outside" places where God is supposed to reside. Therefore, the only logical explanation is either that the universe exists as itself, or that God is the universe.
I'm not sure of the current definition of universe, especially with the word multiverse... I think the main difference between what I said and what you said is terminology.

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edit:
Socom, wtf?
http://www.truthbeknown.com/proof.htm

Anyways, that has little to no relevance to what this thread is about. I'm not starting with any religious assumptions. Please edit your post to a link and a summary. That's really uncalled for...

Wait a tic... I just read the last line of that post. "I'll type some more up tomorrow." If by that, you mean "I'll type more up from this book/printout/article that I had no part in creating originally." If you think you're passing that off as your own, think again. Plagiarism is unacceptable.

I do, however, agree with a good deal of what that writer was saying. Religion's ties to corruption, in the literal, logical, and conceptual ways are disgusting.
Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.
Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm the rest of his life.

Thanks to Shystie for avatar

Last edited by Froggy618157725; 12-30-2006 at 12:01 AM.
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#6
12-30-2006
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cursed Lemon View Post
God cannot exist outside of the universe and then independently interact inside the universe, because any event happening in the universe (in any of the twisted theories of dimension) must be OF the universe.

The "universe" also incorporates ALL of existence, including the so-called "outside" places where God is supposed to reside. Therefore, the only logical explanation is either that the universe exists as itself, or that God is the universe.
there could be parallel universes or something along that line....we dont know for sure if the universe is only and all reality.


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#7
12-30-2006
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom View Post
Thank you for editing that. Try doing it the first time, though
It's still a freakin' huge post with no original information, though. The link alone would suffice, with some small description. Or you could make a thread for it.
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#8
12-30-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Froggy618157725 View Post
Thank you for editing that. Try doing it the first time, though
It's still a freakin' huge post with no original information, though. The link alone would suffice, with some small description. Or you could make a thread for it.
I didn't understand your post so i posted some thing big and complex. Well i sorta understand it, saying how god exist outside of time.

Last edited by Socom; 12-30-2006 at 11:16 AM.
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#9
12-30-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xX SYF Xx View Post
there could be parallel universes or something along that line....we dont know for sure if the universe is only and all reality.
"Universe" incorporates ALL reality. EVERYTHING that is, is in the universe. Not necessarily what we perceive, or are able to perceive.


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#10
12-30-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cursed Lemon View Post
"Universe" incorporates ALL reality. EVERYTHING that is, is in the universe. Not necessarily what we perceive, or are able to perceive.
Yes. That makes our definition of G_d and the universe the same. But I think the actual current definition of universe doesn't quite line up with that. It should,though. Instead of calling something larger the multiverse, we should call ours a subverse, or something like that. But since universe generally refers to the universe as we know it, or the known universe, plus whatever else could hypothetically be known, there are other terms.

The same thing is done with G_d. Because of extra things that people like to tack on to the definition without any real base, which, if accepted, makes all sorts of contradictions and all of that fun stuff. Anyways, if G_d exists in any way religion describes, then G_d is independent of the existence of religion and it should be possible to independantly come to the same conclusions.
Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.
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