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View Poll Results: Are you a feminist?
Yes 8 11.59%
No 47 68.12%
I don't understand feminism enough to decide 14 20.29%
Voters: 69. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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davobrosia
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#31
12-30-2008
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There isn't much relevance to a particular point of view if it doesn't deal directly with a pressing societal issue.
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#32
12-30-2008
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Originally Posted by davobrosia View Post
My point BEING, good sir, that if it's understood by pretty much everyone that the sexes are equal, then there's no point in talking about it like there's some imminent threat from a radical conservative group who are going to outlaw women in the workplace period.

Refer to my Italian analogy.


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#33
12-30-2008
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How much contemporary feminist writing have you read?

Let's keep in mind that most feminist literature, especially that which Jim refers to, was written ~50 or more years ago. Let's also keep in mind that most of it is still relevant. Check out de Beauvoir's The Second Sex or Cixous's "The Laugh of the Medusa."
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#34
12-30-2008
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Originally Posted by Cursed Lemon View Post
And people are. There's nothing alarming about it.
Well, clearly you aren't lol.



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I don't think so. lol

The mindset of a person who justifies the social oppression of women is that of a primitive caveman. A person who refers to a deist God as "he" is not a severe problem in society. If feminism has a problem with that, then it's just coming down to nitpicking.
I don't think the greeks all the way up to 18th century thinkers and society as a whole fit that crude strawman you just presented. Women's social position was set and taught to the point where the subtleties of their social inequality were to such a degree that women weren't even thinking themselves that they had equal rights as human beings. The woman as the weaker sex argument is still persistent and as seen in this thread is being used as it has for a really, really long time. You're ducking under the problem because we gave women equal rights in the last half of a century. Don't take so much pride in a single step and (looking past the fact that women still aren't getting paid equally) see how much is still engrained in our society and still being carried through our generation as it has for two thousand years.

Quote:
Angry? I don't know. But obviously feminism has some kind of relevance, according to you. And I would think that the basic definition of feminism is the viewpoint that the sexes are equal...although I start to question, then, why it is called "feminism" at all.
It's called "feminism" because it's a perspective from the female social position, one that was previously not had. That shouldn't be very hard to get.


Quote:
There isn't much relevance to a particular point of view if it doesn't deal directly with a pressing societal issue. I can be concerned about the equality of Italians in society, should I be bringing up "Italianism" in philosophical works and discussing the issue like it has some kind of significance even though I'm pretty sure Italians are managing just fine?
Are you kidding me, Lemon? Feminism has a huge direct impact with ALL KINDS of pressing societal issues; that's the point. It IS a societal issue. When you bring up feminism, it brings up a societal issue -- that's what this thread is about.

And Italians? You're going to compare the historical oppression of women to a single country's people (who have women being oppressed there, too)?
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#35
12-30-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davobrosia View Post
How much contemporary feminist writing have you read?

Let's keep in mind that most feminist literature, especially that which Jim refers to, was written ~50 or more years ago. Let's also keep in mind that most of it is still relevant. Check out de Beauvoir's The Second Sex or Cixous's "The Laugh of the Medusa."
We're obviously treating the term "relevant" in two different manners.

First of all, I mean relevant NOW. And I'm saying that if feminism wishes for people to abolish any inherent inequalities, not relating to biological differences, present in their minds concerning gender, then that is being done.

Let's say we have a scale...

Code:
Male dominance | 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 | Female dominance
If we were at an 8 or 9 on the male side for all of history, and feminism helped to bring that down to a 1, then that is a solid victory in my eyes. If Jim is implying that feminism is still a pressing issue because the marker keeps bouncing back and forth between 1 on the male side and 1 on the female side...well sh*t, it's never going to be perfect.


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#36
12-30-2008
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Lemon, seriously; Feminism isn't some objective.

Point. Of. View. Analytical perspective. USEFUL
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#37
12-30-2008
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It's not like feminists are always women. Some of the most popular feminists were male. Like Marx and Engels or Mill.
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#38
12-30-2008
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Originally Posted by NiceGuy View Post
I don't think the greeks all the way up to 18th century thinkers and society as a whole fit that crude strawman you just presented. Women's social position was set and taught to the point where the subtleties of their social inequality were to such a degree that women weren't even thinking themselves that they had equal rights as human beings. The woman as the weaker sex argument is still persistent and as seen in this thread is being used as it has for a really, really long time. You're ducking under the problem because we gave women equal rights in the last half of a century. Don't take so much pride in a single step and (looking past the fact that women still aren't getting paid equally) see how much is still engrained in our society and still being carried through our generation as it has for two thousand years.
Well clearly I'm seeing different of society than you. I think that we're most of the way there. If you believe differently, then that is about as pure of a difference of opinion as it can get.

Quote:
It's called "feminism" because it's a perspective from the female social position, one that was previously not had. That shouldn't be very hard to get.
It is hard to get, because looking at it from a female perspective is completely pointless if both men and women are pulling for the exact same results (after all, I don't know how many female philosophers you're going to be referencing...). The equality of the sexes is not a female-only ideal - looking at it from a woman's eyes is nothing more than a historical anecdote when you're talking about the real philosophical meat of the issue.

Quote:
Are you kidding me, Lemon? Feminism has a huge direct impact with ALL KINDS of pressing societal issues; that's the point. It IS a societal issue. When you bring up feminism, it brings up a societal issue -- that's what this thread is about.

And Italians? You're going to compare the historical oppression of women to a single country's people (who have women being oppressed there, too)?
Jim, you're practically fitting the ACTUAL stereotype of a feminist.

I never said it was all the way done. I said it was most of the way done, and that we should be proud of the progress.


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#39
12-30-2008
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Originally Posted by NiceGuy View Post
Lemon, seriously; Feminism isn't some objective.

Point. Of. View. Analytical perspective. USEFUL
All points of view have an objective. Sometimes the objective has already been met, or was never a historical issue.


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#40
12-30-2008
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Hell, why read any text from any point of view but the dominant one?
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