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View Poll Results: Are you a feminist?
Yes 8 11.59%
No 47 68.12%
I don't understand feminism enough to decide 14 20.29%
Voters: 69. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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MsTkEyes
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#11
12-30-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WicKeD ASSaSiN View Post
I know its sad how painfully obvious that statement is. It's even more sad that some people fail to understand it. For example, what if it was the wife that had the job and the husband that did the household chores. Who is going to breastfeed the children? That's is very general example but it gets the point across. It makes sense for women to take care of the children; that doesn't mean they can't pursue some other path.(OMG dub negatives!!)
We have breastpumps (or you can use formula; not every woman can actually even breastfeed because of lack of milk that comes in or latching problems), a lot of working mothers pump their milk before going to work and storing it in the fridge for the day and some even pump at work.


On topic, I am a feminist but I get pissed off when people confuse it with sexism.
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#12
12-30-2008
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Originally Posted by T for ToXiC View Post
I agree with everyone being equal at everything, but to start an ism kinda just defeats the equality. If only idiots didn't exist and isms would never have to exist, that would rock.
Feminism is a philosophy, not a political party. Like I said, which every last one of you missed the point, Feminism is a mode of thought just like determinism, deconstructionism, modernism, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SyKaNe View Post
I would have to lean more on the side of not being a feminist. It's not so much anything against women it's just you cant have two alphas in the same house it just wouldn't work.
Quote:
Originally Posted by StaTuS FeaR View Post
Women are not equal in everything. Live in Wisconsin or somewhere else where is snows a lot and you will find this out. Every snow fall I am the only one shoveling because my dad lives in Virginia and my mom and sister are b..ches.
You couldn't have missed the point any further. It's the inequality of rights not abilities. Feminism isn't about making males and females equal in their biological and physiological traits, it's about equal opportunities, equal rights as a citizen, which women still don't have, and most importantly the recognition of male dominant language in discourse. Women playing in the NFL is a trivial and benine "right" to seek; it's the subtle (and not so subtle) social worldviews and norms of thought.

The fact that there's any negative opposition to feminism is proving the feminist point. All feminists are really doing is looking around and pointing stuff out that is otherwise ignored. Feminism isn't a challenge against men; it's just showing the historical evidence of the inequalities women have encountered due to a male dominant culture.

And it's not always sexism; lots of the things are so subconscious there's no thought of an inferior sex, there's no thought of there being any harm in whatever it is that's said or done at all. You shouldn't have to be a feminist to fight against sexism anyway.
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#13
12-30-2008
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What feminism as a construct of thought needs to understand is that not everyone who succumbs to those dreaded "subtleties" subscribes to chauvinistic or discriminatory ideas. In fact, almost none of them do.

When men and women are literally indistinguishable from each other, is when those subtleties will vanish. There are negative and positive stereotypes about each sex. The legal and opportunistic inequalities that may still exist in society are not something that women need to be terribly concerned about because they WILL vanish - there has never been an extended period of time in which a leading, modern society regressed in any significant manner as to reapply any kind of discriminatory standards to any group as such.

It may have taken far, FAR too long for women to both be allowed to contribute equally as well as be *recognized* for those contributions, as well as for any chauvinist tendencies in general society to be removed (quite frankly, I think that problem is QUITE solved already, what with women always being right about everything), but I think women should at the very least be satisfied that things are moving at a decent clip for them, as a historically oppressed group. I can hear people already wanting to jump on me and say, "OMFG DEY SHUDNT BE SATSFEID TIL DEY R EEKWAL", and no sh*t Sherlock, but the point is that there is nothing to worry about because society is coming around.


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MsTkEyes
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#14
12-30-2008
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I actually do agree with you Cursed. :O
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#15
12-30-2008
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I voted no.
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#16
12-30-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cursed Lemon View Post
What feminism as a construct of thought needs to understand is that not everyone who succumbs to those dreaded "subtleties" subscribes to chauvinistic or discriminatory ideas. In fact, almost none of them do.
Feminism doesn't say that; feminists sometimes do.

Quote:
When men and women are literally indistinguishable from each other, is when those subtleties will vanish. There are negative and positive stereotypes about each sex. The legal and opportunistic inequalities that may still exist in society are not something that women need to be terribly concerned about because they WILL vanish - there has never been an extended period of time in which a leading, modern society regressed in any significant manner as to reapply any kind of discriminatory standards to any group as such.

It may have taken far, FAR too long for women to both be allowed to contribute equally as well as be *recognized* for those contributions, as well as for any chauvinist tendencies in general society to be removed (quite frankly, I think that problem is QUITE solved already, what with women always being right about everything), but I think women should at the very least be satisfied that things are moving at a decent clip for them, as a historically oppressed group. I can hear people already wanting to jump on me and say, "OMFG DEY SHUDNT BE SATSFEID TIL DEY R EEKWAL", and no sh*t Sherlock, but the point is that there is nothing to worry about because society is coming around.
You're confusing Feminism with feminist activism you see on TV. Most Feminist essays aren't some preachy document about how there has to be change for things to be equal and blah blah blah; it's observation. It's a point of view from which to see certain things in a different light -- a light that's a few thousand years overdo. It's just another challenge to the social norms of thought at work.

The only real equality issue I think needs to be taken care of is the still unequal pay women receive, unless you're a porn star that is.

I'll post some feminist essays soon, davo should be doing so soon too. It'll give you a look at what feminists are actually saying instead of what second and third hand information you've heard or signs you've seen women picketing with.
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#17
12-30-2008
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Originally Posted by MsTkEyes View Post
I actually do agree with you Cursed. :O
Pfft, go make a sandwich for NiceGuy's child.

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#18
12-30-2008
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Originally Posted by NiceGuy View Post
Feminism doesn't say that; feminists sometimes do.



You're confusing Feminism with feminist activism you see on TV. Most Feminist essays aren't some preachy document about how there has to be change for things to be equal and blah blah blah; it's observation. It's a point of view from which to see certain things in a different light -- a light that's a few thousand years overdo. It's just another challenge to the social norms of thought at work.

The only real equality issue I think needs to be taken care of is the still unequal pay women receive, unless you're a porn star that is.

I'll post some feminist essays soon, davo should be doing so soon too. It'll give you a look at what feminists are actually saying instead of what second and third hand information you've heard or signs you've seen women picketing with.
Well when you look at it in that manner, it's really nothing more pressing than just a trivial sociological analysis. Like I said, the people who may be unaware of the hard-wired "inequalities" in their minds are usually never the people who pay a woman 80 cents to a man's dollar. In that respect, feminism in this day and age may simply be an after-thought, one that should be kept on reserve in case society has a small progressive hiccup and forgets where it's going.


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#19
12-30-2008
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Originally Posted by NiceGuy View Post
Feminism is a philosophy, not a political party. Like I said, which every last one of you missed the point, Feminism is a mode of thought just like determinism, deconstructionism, modernism, etc.





You couldn't have missed the point any further. It's the inequality of rights not abilities. Feminism isn't about making males and females equal in their biological and physiological traits, it's about equal opportunities, equal rights as a citizen, which women still don't have, and most importantly the recognition of male dominant language in discourse. Women playing in the NFL is a trivial and benine "right" to seek; it's the subtle (and not so subtle) social worldviews and norms of thought.

The fact that there's any negative opposition to feminism is proving the feminist point. All feminists are really doing is looking around and pointing stuff out that is otherwise ignored. Feminism isn't a challenge against men; it's just showing the historical evidence of the inequalities women have encountered due to a male dominant culture.

And it's not always sexism; lots of the things are so subconscious there's no thought of an inferior sex, there's no thought of there being any harm in whatever it is that's said or done at all. You shouldn't have to be a feminist to fight against sexism anyway.
Women, for all of history (unless you want to bring up the ashanti tribe and whatnot), have been looked at as the less dominate species... All of a sudden all of history has been incorrect? I'm pretty sure there has been a reason women have been the less dominate species and even the early humans realize that. And as someone said earlier in the thread women aren't looked down as not equals they just have different positions in life.
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#20
12-30-2008
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Originally Posted by SyKaNe View Post
Women, for all of history (unless you want to bring up the ashanti tribe and whatnot), have been looked at as the less dominate species... All of a sudden all of history has been incorrect? I'm pretty sure there has been a reason women have been the less dominate species and even the early humans realize that. And as someone said earlier in the thread women aren't looked down as not equals they just have different positions in life.
Assuming that women are "resigned" to their biological function is, in fact, looking down upon them. Which is exactly what, historically, has happened. Women have been the less dominant species because of a) evolutionary psychology, and b) the fact that men have a harder fist. That's pretty much it.


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