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#31
01-17-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lookinfor1v1 View Post
I misread your response.
Back on topic.
How do I NOT beleive I the Bible?
That's a stupid lie.
Authors write myths not for people to take them at face-value, but to get the message which they are conveying.
So it's not god's word? Correcto mundo? That would make you an interpreter, not really a believer.

(Please use spell check and reread your response, it is getting VERY difficult to read your responses.)
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#32
01-17-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lookinfor1v1 View Post
Back on the subject of the origin of the universe.
It has been deduced by many scholars, and many people today, that for all of the physical universe as we know it, there MUST have been an uncaused cause (Something beyond time, space, and matter) for the physical reality of the universe to exist as we know it.
No, it hasn't been deduced by many scholars. I already debunked this ridiculous argument.

1. Causality is a natural property of the universe (assumed).
2. The first cause was part of the chain of causality, lest it have no effect on future events or become completely irrelevant.
3. Necessarily subject to the rules of causality, the first cause was natural, and not supernatural.
4. The first cause was of the universe.
Quote:
When you regress back through time, and into the Big-Bang some billions of years ago, you eventually arrive at the conclusion that SOMETHING had to be there, even before matter, energy, space, and time.
Then what you're going to have to do is explain existence in the purest metaphysical sense possible. Because if something doesn't have a definite form that obeys the rules of logic, it either doesn't exist or it cannot be used in an argument because -and here's the kicker - arguments are based on LOGIC.

Quote:
Because nothing comes from nothing.
Therefore, something had to be there for matter and energy to exist, and for the big-bang to have been initiated from matter and energy, there obviously needed to be a prior cause.
What you're doing is a classic theist maneuver in which you take an unsupported conclusion that's already been presented, and work backwards to try and find examples to support it. I don't know who your 3rd grade science teacher was but that is not how you go about constructing an argument.

Quote:
Once you begin to understnd this concept, you realize the origin of the universe isn't all that confusing, and you cease to delvge into unsupported theories about parallel universes, and infinite ammount of chances for the universe to have been originated.
Yeah.

Silly sh*t, quantum physics.

Quote:
I'll say this again, even if there WAS an infinite ammount of time before the universe came to be (which is obviously not the case), it is impossible that non-intelligent phenomenons caused a universe of order, life, and of such immense complexity to come into existence.
The argument from order is completely irrelevant to the origin of the universe. It supports both sides depending on how you spin it. I can just as easily say that the drift of cause and effect can create a working system just as efficiently as something can arrange it.

Quote:
On a side note, theists DO NOT use this phenomenom as their sole argument based on uncertainty. They reason and examine other possibilities, and conclude that it simply doesn't make any sense whatsoever to claim that the universe was created by non-intelligent things.
They also avoid hiding behind the shield of: "the universe is a mystery so we'll never know how it happened".
The universe is no great mystery, once you take a closer look.
...These correlate how, again?


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#33
01-17-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lookinfor1v1
They also avoid hiding behind the shield of: "the universe is a mystery so we'll never know how it happened".
The universe is no great mystery, once you take a closer look.
Actually that isn't a shield. Kinda the truth. Unless you want to tell us what happens when a star gets put in a black hole? I would love to hear this information, since it 'isn't' complicated.
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#34
01-17-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XxIBTrayxX View Post
to the subject of this thread, I find it more logical to be made in a universe that was also made by a superior being than to be a matter of luck as the big bang THEORY states. i find it hard to believe that a random explosion in a universe, that apperently to some people came from nothing, some how created a human being with fully functional nerves, veins, arteries, hair, organs, emotions, sight, senses, hunger, thought, etc... ALONG with millions of fully functioning different animals, bugs, trees, and elements. i would like to see a re-enactment of this so called big bang theory. if someone would like to try this out and make it work... i would dedicate my life to that person. heres all you have to do, and ill make it easy on you, ill give you any random junk yard AND some explosives. please go plant some explosives (the big bang) in any junkyard (representing a somehow pre-exsisting galaxy) and blow it up. i would like to find a fully functioning 2007 ford f150 ( representing just one human) made from this junkyard explosion. now to make it more realisting, i would like to see a new car lot made from this explosion. and i gave that example to someone and they replied "well if you do that infinity times its may happen". yea well the problem lies herein, the junkyard, the dynamite, and the 'you', dont exsist. now explain...
Oh, wonderful. Another argument from incredulity and ignorance, rife with strawmen and misunderstandings of science.

GG.
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#35
01-17-2008
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No, it hasn't been deduced by many scholars. I already debunked this ridiculous argument.

1. Causality is a natural property of the universe (assumed).
2. The first cause was part of the chain of causality, lest it have no effect on future events or become completely irrelevant.
3. Necessarily subject to the rules of causality, the first cause was natural, and not supernatural.
4. The first cause was of the universe.

This is the dumbest reply I've seen to date.
Your argument says that since casualty is a natural property, the cause responsible for the creation of the universe was FROM the universe?
Then you attempt to go in circles, and completely avoid the beggining of such events by mentioning a "chain" of casualty, and conclude that the universe created itself. (WTF)
Wow.



Then what you're going to have to do is explain existence in the purest metaphysical sense possible. Because if something doesn't have a definite form that obeys the rules of logic, it either doesn't exist or it cannot be used in an argument because -and here's the kicker - arguments are based on LOGIC.

Well, when we conclude that something had to be there, Christians looked for suplementary evidence, and found an intelligent all-powerful being, God.
When you look at the complexity of the universe, and many other arguments, you find this is in no way beyond logic.


What you're doing is a classic theist maneuver in which you take an unsupported conclusion that's already been presented, and work backwards to try and find examples to support it. I don't know who your 3rd grade science teacher was but that is not how you go about constructing an argument.

I'm working backwards in time to get to the point of my argument, not necessairily to prove it.
We have life: the Earth: Galaxy: Universe: Matter and Energy that begun the universe:
Simple enough, we work backwards to get to the point.
It appears your knowledge isn't much greater than that of a 3rd grade child either.




The argument from order is completely irrelevant to the origin of the universe. It supports both sides depending on how you spin it. I can just as easily say that the drift of cause and effect can create a working system just as efficiently as something can arrange it.

Cause and chance are un-intelligent natural laws.
It is impossible that these can create a universe with order and such immense design, no matter how much time you give them.


II JumpiN II


It amazes me to find an intelligent person who fights against something which he does not at all believe exists.
Mohandas Gandhi

Atheism is a crutch for those who cannot bear the reality of God.
Tom Stoppard

Last edited by lookinfor1v1; 01-18-2008 at 09:48 AM.
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#36
01-17-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lookinfor1v1 View Post
Well, when we conclude that something had to be there, Christians looked for suplementary evidence, and found an intelligent all-powerful being, God.
When you look at the complexity of the universe, and many other arguments, you find this is in no way beyond logic.
To put it simply, no. Logic states that that method of reasoning is invalid. It's a basic logical fallacy: an argument from ignorance. Complexity does not imply design. Period.
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#37
01-17-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lookinfor1v1 View Post
No, it hasn't been deduced by many scholars. I already debunked this ridiculous argument.

1. Causality is a natural property of the universe (assumed).
2. The first cause was part of the chain of causality, lest it have no effect on future events or become completely irrelevant.
3. Necessarily subject to the rules of causality, the first cause was natural, and not supernatural.
4. The first cause was of the universe.

This is the dumbest reply I've seen to date.
Your argument says that since casualty is a natural property, it is responsible for the creation of the universe, so the universe is naturally created?
Then you attempt to go in circles, and completely avoid the beggining of such events by mentioning a "chain" of casualty, and conclude that the universe created itself. (WTF)
Wow.



Then what you're going to have to do is explain existence in the purest metaphysical sense possible. Because if something doesn't have a definite form that obeys the rules of logic, it either doesn't exist or it cannot be used in an argument because -and here's the kicker - arguments are based on LOGIC.

Well, when we conclude that something had to be there, Christians looked for suplementary evidence, and found an intelligent all-powerful being, God.
When you look at the complexity of the universe, and many other arguments, you find this is in no way beyond logic.


What you're doing is a classic theist maneuver in which you take an unsupported conclusion that's already been presented, and work backwards to try and find examples to support it. I don't know who your 3rd grade science teacher was but that is not how you go about constructing an argument.

I'm working backwards in time to get to the point of my argument, not necessairily to prove it.
We have life: the Earth: Galaxy: Universe: Matter and Energy that begun the universe:
Simple enough, we work backwards to get to the point.
It appears your knowledge isn't much greater than that of a 3rd grade child either.




The argument from order is completely irrelevant to the origin of the universe. It supports both sides depending on how you spin it. I can just as easily say that the drift of cause and effect can create a working system just as efficiently as something can arrange it.

Cause and chance are un-intelligent natural laws.
It is impossible that these can create a universe with order and such immense design, no matter how much time you give them.
Christians didn't find shit, just like you they followed something just because it was easier to them, and gave a warm fuzzy feeling. You are acting like those people thousands of years ago, and yet we have all this knowledge which debunks so many things that you believe in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lookinfor1v1 View Post

This is the dumbest reply I've seen to date.
I am waiting for you to get shit on.
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#38
01-17-2008
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lookinfor1v1, I'm not the one that made the miconception, historian and theologian Dr. Lynn White did.
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#39
01-17-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nothing View Post
Why does lookinfor1v1 always have to make a "Wow, you're so damn ignorant and stupid!" comment in just about every one of his posts?
And why cant such a smart person learn how to spell and use the quotation system properly?

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#40
01-17-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sociable View Post
I am waiting for you to get sh.t on.
I've made a resolution (that I keep breaking) to not debate unless it's beneficial to one or both parties.


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