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NG
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#21
09-10-2007
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Voltaire? That may be who you're thinking of.
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davobrosia
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#22
09-10-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NiceGuy View Post
Voltaire? That may be who you're thinking of.
What he described sounds like Boethius's response to the omnipotence/free will issue, but if so, he's off by about a thousand years.
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#23
09-10-2007
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God is outside of time.
davobrosia
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#24
09-10-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuadPrism View Post
God is outside of time.
That's a cop-out.
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E Nomini Patri
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#25
09-10-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuadPrism View Post
God is outside of time.
Define time.


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NG
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#26
09-10-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davobrosia View Post
What he described sounds like Boethius's response to the omnipotence/free will issue, but if so, he's off by about a thousand years.
I just threw out a V name from around the time period I think he might've been talking about. So often are there similar, yet independently produced, philosophies that make the same argument.
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#27
09-10-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E Nomini Patri View Post
You make your assertions without evidence so I can dismiss them without evidence. Thanks for proving my point. All you can do now is beg the question, "what makes the Bible true then?" Go to the common fallacies thread that NiceGuy posted. You will see that you deflate logic when you inevitably tell me the Bible is true because God wrote it and you know God wrote it because the Bible says so. That explains nothing except that you have no substantial reasons to believe anything you have told me thus far except that you have convinced yourself regardless.
Which is exactly why I wanted to remain away from the Bible as much as possible and try to resolve this in a pure logical way.

I just want to add an aside note, anything, and I mean anything that seems absolutely ridiculous has the potential to be proved. Check out my new thread I'm making right now!
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#28
09-10-2007
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Originally Posted by QuadPrism View Post
God is outside of time.
Then we'll say that time doesn't exist in instances, but the 4th dimension is cross-sections of a very simply physical universe. Time is a part of existence as normal as the third dimension. So not only does your response not apply, you've actually STRENGTHENED the idea that we do not have free will, seeing as the long undulating snake that would be our 4th dimensional selves must've already been created in its entirety. Not even that, the ENTIRE UNIVERSE would exist in cross-sections of time, meaning that everything in the universe is interdependent on the next thing as a whole existence.


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#29
09-11-2007
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In the egg analogy i like to think of gravity as the decisions we make. They cause us to act in a certain way. Now to us, actions are not predictable like gravity. We know whats going to happen when we drop an egg, but when a man walks up to a T in the road we don't know what is going to happen. But to an omniscient being we are as predictable as gravity. From the first instance when we are let go, god can not help but to see us 'fall' the exact path he always knew we would. The idea of the metaphor is that gravity is predictable, not that it is linear.

Now i must make it clear here that we do make decisions independent of god. He does let go of the egg. We cause our selves to 'fall'. Gravity works by its self. But where ever you choose to let go of an egg (or were ever a person is born in the world if you will) you cannot help but know where its going to hit the ground. Unless you can somehow remove your self of the knowledge and ability to predict gravity, you know the result of your choice - you have the burden of knowledge.




Separately:
I remember when i first started thinking about determinism when i was young. I had this mind experiment - imagine someone making a decision in a situation. Now imagine if that situation was replicated exactly. Exactly same variables, exact same person with the exact same memories as they had last time (ie, no memories of making the decision before) would they make the same decision? If no this means that the process is random - which means that it is not a decision at all. If yes then that person will always make that decision in that situation. But what does it mean that if in the exact same decision will be made every time? Any decision will always happen the way it was going to.

This worried me as a kid. This meant that if i picked up a knife and stabbed someone with it, it was always going to happen anyway. I thought this meant that in a way if i did do something like that, i had no control over it.. But the thing i realized is that a person is not going to make decisions to get things they don't want anyway. Even if decision making is deterministic, the decisions are still based on the wants of that person, and thus the effects are going to be what that want was. The persons wants causes the wants to manifest - and that is basically what the definition of control is. I'm never going to want to stab someone, so it doesn't bother me that if i did it was always going to happen, because as far as i know i won't. I still have control in a deterministic universe.
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#30
09-11-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davobrosia View Post
What he described sounds like Boethius's response to the omnipotence/free will issue, but if so, he's off by about a thousand years.
There is a reason I am failing AP Euro.

Thanks for your time.
 

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