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Wingman
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#1
02-12-2009
Default Do humans have free will?

Determinism seems to breach the so called free will because all things you do have been theologically determined by the supreme being. If determinism have all humans programmed like a computer operator does with computers, what happens to free will?

The is no doubt in all aspects, some people even think that all man's action is determined by his environment.

What is free will?

My View:

Value can only be built upon values, for we only accept values after we have judged them favorably, and that process of judging is not possible without a set of values to operate as a yardstick. By extension of this logic, we must conclude that some values are innate, as without this core set of values, no other values would have been possible.

Now these values are the will, as will is our motivation to act, and we do not act for any other reason than value fulfillment.

Also, if we are to consider the concept of freedom, we will certainly establish it as a state of sovereignty, of self-control.

So, for there to exist a free will, it must be a motivation entirely controlled by the individual who possesses them, and as such must be a product of values over which the individual is sovereign.

With it being stated that there exists an innate set of values that are the root for all of our motivations, and that only those who control their motivations possess free will, we can define two possibilities, those who are self-creators and those who do not possess free will.

Since it is plain that no person is a self-creator, we can say that no person exists that possesses a free will.








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davobrosia
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#2
02-12-2009
Default

FOrgive typos because i"M a bit drunk.



Determinism allows free will because we aren't aware and can't ever become aware (see chaos theory) of the future with absolute certainty.
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davobrosia
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#3
02-12-2009
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read some FOucault and Kierkegaard adn Sartre
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SyKaNe
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#4
02-12-2009
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Do you have the free will to create this thread?
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Cheehwawa
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#5
02-12-2009
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If God is all-knowing we cannot possibly have free will. But there's no God, so we do have free will.
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Wingman
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#6
02-12-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheehwawa View Post
If God is all-knowing we cannot possibly have free will. But there's no God, so we do have free will.

Any support? or are you just going off what you perceive. Perceptions prove god does not exist. However perception is not credible. It can be easily swayed by biases currently set in the mind. If one chooses to see it as a coincidence instead of an act of god. one will believe it as a coincidence.

Reason proves that it does. What started it all? a Prime Creator/s correct?

By many definitions:

Prime Creator/s (thing/s who started everything) = God or many gods




But this is not a religion debate. this is about philosophy and the pursuit of free will.

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Last edited by Wingman; 02-12-2009 at 11:06 PM.
KNIGHTSPAWN555
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#7
02-13-2009
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Yes, we have free will, without a doubt.

I chose to call Davo a faoggot so I will: Davo you are a homosexual.
See? Free will.

I'm just kidding though.
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Well I uhhh.....a while back when I would be home alone I would role play with my stuffed animals. Like in a sexual way. I would dress them up in my clothes and play strip games with them like strip poker and strip dice games and take their clothes off when they lost. But for some reason we all lost at the same time and I would roll around in them and jack off. Yea that's f..king weird isn't it? *regrets writing this*
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#8
02-13-2009
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I think we have free will as a river has the free will to flow in the direction it flows.

Mind-Brain determinism-
Each mental or conscious event, including each choosing or deciding, is in nomic connection with an associated neural event. The neural event by itself or together with some other non-mental thing necessitated the mental one. That is, since the non-mental thing happened, whatever else had been happening, the mental event would still have happened as it did.

Initiation Determinism-
The mental event and the neural event were an effect of the causal sequence, whose initial causal circumstance had in it early neural and bodily events and also certain environmental events - no mental events.

Action Determinism-
Each action, in a general sense, is the effect of a causal sequence whose initial circumstances included the right active intention.

When the you have a chain of causations extending to the beginning of time (weather you beleive in a big bang or a deity) you have a lack of free will in a sense.

[M3] .................[M4]
[N3]-----------> [N4]-----------> A
..........E2--^.................B1--^

This is a crappy ascii drawing but basically:
M3 (mental event 3) and N3 (nueral event 3) are on psychoneural pair. This pair combines with an environmental event E2 creating a causal circumstance. This triggers M4 (mental event 4) and N4 (nueral event 4) which are linked biologically. M4 N4 together with B1 (bodily event 1) cause action A.

Is action A your choice? Not necessarily, but it is exactly what your mind and brain "want" to do.

The model for free-will looks simillar but has a strange addition:


-------------------(SELF)------------------------------->
M3...............M4............................... ...A
N3...............N4............................... ....^

M3 and N3 are as before however they do not CAUSE M4 (which is linked with N4). Mental event 3 occurs with nueral event 3. Then something originated by your SELF leads to M4 and linked N4. That would be a choice. Then M4/N4 causes action A. This model makes sure that M4 is not necessiated by N3 as before. The SELF somehow influences M4 on its own but can't really be understood how it is linked to each bodily process. This doesn't make sense to me.

This post is all over the place lol. I can try to explain the nueroscience behind this idea tomorrow if anybody thinks this is logical.

And I just googled some stuff and found further reading for OP if you want to see different explanations of determinism and free will: http://www.ucl.ac.uk/~uctytho/dfwIntroIndex.htm



Last edited by josh1337; 02-13-2009 at 01:02 AM.
Sniperion
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#9
02-13-2009
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We don't have free will. Almost everything we do is restricted by some sort. If there was free will there would be no laws.
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Wingman
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#10
02-13-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sniperion View Post
We don't have free will. Almost everything we do is restricted by some sort. If there was free will there would be no laws.

How so?
i support your point but clarify.

when you say "if there was free will there would be no laws"

you actually prove the point of someone who says free will exists.
because if everything relied on "fate" then why would we need laws. when something bad is going to happen any way.

I agree with you narrow your focus.

kind of a strawman theory.
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