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bjorn_248
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#1
01-31-2012
Default Time to spew some thoughts

Going to put a bit of myself out there for you because that's how much of a conceited asshole I am .

My first thought is that a main facet of my life is moral and ethical action. Golden rule, basically. Whether there is an objective morality in the universe should be (and probably already is) a topic for another thread, but I would like to think that there is. The second thing that comes to mind is that this morality has no reliance on religion in any way, in fact, the mere idea of institutionalized religion bothers me, and I generally disagree with it. Another point that I would like to make is that I honestly don't give a fuck what your point of view is, we're all people trying to get through life in our own way. Part of where my hate for institutionalized religion comes from is intolerance of other ways of thinking. Yes, there is a line where I will stop tolerating your point of view (hitler case, for example...no I can't tolerate that and sit idly by as you massacre a population) but that line is pretty far in the deep end that I have never encountered anyone that has been on the other side. I try to get along with most people, but I don't go out of my way to make friends or interact. I'll be friendly if you want to start a conversation, so friendly in fact that most people seem to like me afterwards, but I won't get in everyone's face about who I am and what I am about without them showing me that they have any interest in even talking in the first place. I don't try to make friends, I don't start conversations without reason, I hate small talk (talking to fill the time), I love goofing around on irc or aim, also like joking around in general. I enjoy peace, nature, and harmony (LOL WHAT A FAGGOT).

Religious views: I have been well aware of the fact that any kind of religious belief is well beyond the grasp of reason for many years now. The only thing I can't seem to do is make a commitment to one side of the argument or the other. I cannot make a statement about truly believing either in the existence of God or the nonexistence of God. I honestly don't want to get into a debate about deities in this thread because trying to use reason and logic to find God is like trying to read a book by smelling it, in my mind. I find myself first and foremost a skepticist, which is why I also find it funny that I even entertain the notion of God (I'm probably only doing this to piss off the atheists). The truth is, I think religious beliefs should be a personal matter, and nobody should tell you or force you what to believe. Getting into another debate about God here would just result in us spewing either idiotic ideas, or the ideas of philosophers that lived generations before us. Let's get an education before thinking we can engage in the argument.

If someone presents an argument, or fact, or opinion, or whatever else it may be, I find myself refuting it almost immediately, either to myself, or if among friends, to them directly. Sometimes it does not coincide with my personal beliefs at all, I just think exploratory argument is healthy, occasionally (lookin' at you, colo).

Most of that was ranting and random thought associations, but hey, I promised mike I'd make this thread, and so I made it. Also, check out the IRC some time, it's neat and fun .
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#2
01-31-2012
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What I find interesting is that the main facet of your life is moral and ethical action, yet you don't even try to imply some kind of origin for that morality. Maybe you do believe your morality to be derived from something, but you don't state it.

The other thing that always kind of gets me when I hear people say things like you did in the example of Hitler. You say there is a "line where I will stop tolerating your point of view" but how are you drawing that line? What's your reference point? Is it a gut feeling, or a conscience? I'm not insinuating anything, just curious to hear an explanation for that.
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#3
01-31-2012
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I'm trying to assert that there's a line where I will stop being tolerant of your views if you stop acting morally/ethically. I haven't taken an ethics class so I don't really want to assert anything that I will later find out is abhorrently uninformed (there's another characteristic of mine), so I'll just leave it at that. I'm at the questioning stage right now. Maybe when I'm older and wiser I'll be able to provide some answers, or maybe I'll just become ignorant enough to think I have some!

I believe that morality can exist without religion/god being a source, if that's your question. I believe in this on faith (kind of like a religion, lol). Does a child who grew up in a godless society know that it is wrong to make another child cry? Does a father know it is wrong to kill his son? Is the love a father and mother share for their children inherent? Questions that need answering, in my opinion, in order to really address the question of objective morality.
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bjorn_248
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#4
01-31-2012
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Alright, probably should not throw the term "objective morality" around since I'm not trying to imply that it is outside of human thought. Will elaborate tomorrow.

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bjorn_248
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#5
02-01-2012
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Wow incorrect usage if terms here. Well, what I meant by believing in morality was that it exists independent of religion or god. Sigh, really should not have written that yesterday after being up for so long.

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#6
02-01-2012
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You could dick around with hypotheticals and kneejerk "gotchas" regarding foundations and grounding that haven't actually been problems for about 300 years; or, you could hit the books and actually get somewhere interesting.


"For according to Spinoza, Good has no more sense than Evil: in Nature there is neither Good nor Evil...But because there is no Good or Evil, this does not mean all distinctions vanish. There is no Good or Evil in Nature, but there are good and bad things for each existing mode...As Nietzsche put it, "beyond good and evil...at least this does not mean 'beyond good and bad'"...The distinction between good things and bad provides the basis for a real ethical difference, which we must substitute for a false moral opposition." (Expressionism in Philosophy: Spinoza 253-254)

I'll just leave these here.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/deleuze/#DelReaOthPhi
http://www.iep.utm.edu/deleuze/
http://mediafire.com/?04echfia93e3am9 pw: ebooksclub.org
http://www.iep.utm.edu/fouc-eth/

http://www.eurozine.com/articles/200...tocker-en.html
http://www.mediafire.com/?yzi48thywxyvvot
http://ifile.it/v4gk9l/__The_Sublime...79k7xz2xj6.pdf
http://ifile.it/zregva/__The_Paralla...79k7xz2xj6.pdf
http://ifile.it/4k7msl/__Violence__B...79k7xz2xj6.pdf

Keep in mind that the Subject and knowledge are products of discourse.
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Last edited by davobrosia; 02-01-2012 at 11:45 AM.
bjorn_248
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#7
02-01-2012
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Davo puttin' the thread on his back do.

I'll be coming back to this thread as I read more.
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#8
02-01-2012
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Basically you have to start with Kant's buttfucking everything all to shit. Even though he was wrong (rather, was too pussy to go far enough), from him on the sentiment of the first response here has been a red herring.
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#9
02-01-2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davobrosia View Post
Basically you have to start with Kant's buttfucking everything all to shit. Even though he was wrong (rather, was too pussy to go far enough), from him on the sentiment of the first response here has been a red herring.
Eloquently stated as always....

You're right though, the questions I asked are irrelevant in the space that is philosophical debate.

Here is my take on the debate of morality, as unfounded in discourse as it may be. Actually, this is kind of my take on a lot of philosophical issues. The questions that have plagued human kind for its known existence have yet to be answered. When you start debating the issue of morality, all you are doing is partaking in what I would call a "semi-recreational" activity. For a select few, this kind of delving into the abstract is peaceful, and makes life more clear or simple. However, the majority of people find solace in what I would call natural or instinctive ignorance. We don't ask the questions of morality, reality, etc because I think instinctively we know we can't find the answers.

I know this doesn't address the debate of morality, but that is because I'm not educated enough to participate in this discourse.

@Bjorn, Davo is certainly educated in this area, and if you want to learn more then he's probably one of the best resources on this topic on THF. However, I don't think you are going to find the answers that you're looking for (I'm assuming that you are since you decided to open up your thoughts on this topic to interpretation and criticism). If you are happy with your reasoning and your basis for morality (if you consider yourself to have one) then I apologize. Maybe you're just a glutten for intelectual, educational punishment.
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#10
02-01-2012
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When I said discourse, I didn't mean this conversation. I used it in the structuralist sense insofar as I believe that the Subject, Other, ethics, truth, knowledge, and everything else all find their origin in discursive formations--ideas, attitudes, actions, beliefs, culture, and Ideology, as well as the intersubjective network of relations of the aforementioned--that construct us and the worlds of which we speak. More important to me is examining the power relations that influence and exist by virtue of these discourses.
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Last edited by davobrosia; 02-01-2012 at 11:54 AM.
 

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