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The Colostomizer
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#71
06-29-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briansoupy View Post
I don't really understand you.
Well, what are you saying? Just that atheism and the view that some actions are always wrong no matter what aren't necessarily incompatible?
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#72
06-30-2011
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Yes.
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The Colostomizer
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#73
06-30-2011
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Are you just playing Devil's advocate, or do you want to make an argument?
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#74
06-30-2011
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No I really just came in here to to express to the best of my ability that moral absolutism is possible even within an atheistic framework. I like to think that there is an absolute moral principle from which all else moral follows. Whether people f..k up or not is completely irrelevant, something's existence (material or otherwise) is not dependent on it's being discovered or perceived.

I don't want to make an argument, thanks for asking though. I don't have the kind of gall (or time for that matter) to come out and present some hotheaded hyper-confident sequential argument for people to poke at and be all snarky about.
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#75
06-30-2011
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Well, I'm still confused, 'cause it sounds again like you're talking about morality existing independent of human beings.
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#76
06-30-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briansoupy View Post
I like to think that there is an absolute moral principle from which all else moral follows.
yeah but there isn't

is there an absolute language? no.

morality is a product of society, as is language

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Whether people f..k up or not is completely irrelevant, something's existence (material or otherwise) is not dependent on it's being discovered or perceived.
4real?
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#77
06-30-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briansoupy View Post
No I really just came in here to to express to the best of my ability that moral absolutism is possible even within an atheistic framework. I like to think that there is an absolute moral principle from which all else moral follows. Whether people f..k up or not is completely irrelevant, something's existence (material or otherwise) is not dependent on it's being discovered or perceived.

I don't want to make an argument, thanks for asking though. I don't have the kind of gall (or time for that matter) to come out and present some hotheaded hyper-confident sequential argument for people to poke at and be all snarky about.
Just to clarify, are you wanting to raise the point that both atheists and theists can embrace at least some objective moral values? If so, I suppose the only point worthy of further contention would be over what each view would argue makes a given act morally wrong, but I'm not sure anyone wants to go that route.
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#78
06-30-2011
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Yeah @KSP, mike, Colostimizer, davo: Talking about an objective morality gets and is getting really nasty and metaphysical. Lots of issues about the notion of existence. Like for example we'd have to establish in what sense does a principle exist (ie Do to others as you'd have them do to you). Then after that we have to talk about, like davo brought up, the nature of value judgements and how moral opinions would be classified. Lots of messy issues that, like KSP said, I don't really want to grapple with now.

Ultimately it's not the case that I have an argument or have seen an argument that convinced me of an objective morality, but rather it's the case that every argument I've encountered for relativity seems to be flawed in some way. So yeah maybe morality is relative but I haven't been convinced either way.
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#79
06-30-2011
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Authors who make good arguments for or whose ideas generally suggest some sort of relativism: Nietzsche, Durkheim, Foucault, Kuhn, Feyerabend, Althusser, Zizek, Derrida. However, most of the continental philosophers are of that volition in some capacity, and it's not always the central theme, but it's definitely there. Foucault's work with the contingent nature of society and power structures, for example, does a pretty decent job of dismantling any argument that treats absolutism and objectivity as even coherent concepts. The others should be fairly obvious, but the general trend toward (and massive corpus of writing on) the destabilization of binaries and of truth leads to the conclusion Bishop is so buttblistered about. Derrida is great for that.
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Last edited by davobrosia; 06-30-2011 at 11:03 PM.
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#80
06-30-2011
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Also, I hate Vegas, I didn't mean to butthurt you, and like I said, I tend to agree with your conclusions, but you made a shitty argument. Sorry I hurt your feelings.
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