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Vagrant
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#31
04-27-2011
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Originally Posted by Midpoint View Post
Winner. Alot of times I honestly sense you have grown as tired and bored of these discussions as I have.

A problem I have with a number of people is that they assign a sense of urgency and supremacy to their personal belief system to the point that others should adopt it, and that those who hold views contrary to it are an inherent danger to them and society as a whole.

Ive learned over time that intolerant, arrogant, cowardly people are pretty much the same, despite whatever side of the fence they play on.
You're 100% correct here on all counts.
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#32
04-27-2011
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gods existence is inconsequential to me

i trust my self to decipher between what's right and wrong
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#33
04-27-2011
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DID YOU know!?

NOW YOU KNOW

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muRda
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#34
04-27-2011
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I don't feel that those who believe in a god under some religion are stupid, but I do find belief in any of them intellectually lazy. Religion has had thousands or so years of a head start on science as to explain the origins of our universe. Science has fossils, telescopes, and a bunch of other cool crap that has helped us trace further and further back in time and learn more and more about our world. Religion, since its existence, has done the opposite; its explanations arise out of convenience and misguided curiosity about our world. If we can trace the human race back to our ancient ancestors with science, why don't we trace back to ancient religions with religion? They have all stemmed and borrowed from another; well, according to religious logic, we all didn't get here by accident and there had to be some beginning. So, what is it for religion then? I'm not gonna sit here and Google my life away to score internet research and debate brownie points to trace major world religions back to an evolutionary starting point. But, if you really are that much dedicated to a belief in a god, I hope you attempt to do so; see what you come up with. Because if it's anything short of cavemen assigning spiritual significance to the shit coming out of their ass for relieving their stomach pain, then call me a monkey's closest relative. I apologize for the shocking imagery, but feel free to substitute flowers or stars instead.

Last edited by muRda; 04-27-2011 at 11:32 PM.
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#35
04-27-2011
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What is interesting about this is that, removing one's personal belief paradigm and looking at Genesis from a simple forensic standpoint, it is important to remember that this book of the Bible was not written by Christians, but is the first book of the Hebrew Bible, the first five books of Moses, used today even in synagogues as the foundation for the Temple.
So if you believe in Judaic Law and go to Temple, then this is the baseline for your religious beliefs.

Now, of note, Genesis was written at a time when the Chinese believed that a rabbit (hare) lived inside of the moon. The Romans had temples dedicated to the Moon goddess, and in fact performed burning rites (sacrifices) to the moon as if it were an actual deity to be worshipped. Most of the earth based religions (Celtic for example) also believed that the moon was a feminine deity of sorts, as well, to be worshipped.

Of all these cultural groups, only one really came close, and those people were the Jews. Remember, this was a time when 99% of the planet worshipped the moon as a deity, and the Jewish Rabbis simply said, thousands of years ago, essentially, no. The moon is simply a "lesser light" placed by Elohim (God) in the sky to help us (mark) the seasons." And to be sure, the moon has indeed been used for this very purpose throughout the millenia.

Closely observing the ancient Hebrew words in Genesis (which is no small feat mind you), we find that the ancient Jews referred to the sun and the moon, not as lights but as luminaries. The actual word for this is מאור. The word luminary simply meant, to the ancient Jewish people, a "celestial object" and nothing more. There is no indication, anywhere in the Aramaic text that the moon "gives off it's own light" so there, indeed, is in fact no conflict here.


The problem actually stems from, not surprisingly, the transliteration from ancient Hebrew into English. I am not religious, I dont go to church or anything, but you have to admit that, of all the ancient cultures, tribes and religions, honestly Genesis is much more realistic than burning virgins on a stone altar to the "moon goddess" or believing that there is a rabbit living inside the moon.
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#36
04-28-2011
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Originally Posted by muRda View Post
I don't feel that those who believe in a god under some religion are stupid, but I do find belief in any of them intellectually lazy. Religion has had thousands or so years of a head start on science as to explain the origins of our universe. Science has fossils, telescopes, and a bunch of other cool crap that has helped us trace further and further back in time and learn more and more about our world. Religion, since its existence, has done the opposite; its explanations arise out of convenience and misguided curiosity about our world. If we can trace the human race back to our ancient ancestors with science, why don't we trace back to ancient religions with religion? They have all stemmed and borrowed from another; well, according to religious logic, we all didn't get here by accident and there had to be some beginning. So, what is it for religion then? I'm not gonna sit here and Google my life away to score internet research and debate brownie points to trace major world religions back to an evolutionary starting point. But, if you really are that much dedicated to a belief in a god, I hope you attempt to do so; see what you come up with. Because if it's anything short of cavemen assigning spiritual significance to the shit coming out of their ass for relieving their stomach pain, then call me a monkey's closest relative. I apologize for the shocking imagery, but feel free to substitute flowers or stars instead.
I will not try to bore you with a long and drawn out post but will simply say that your viewpoint has one fundamental flaw in my estimation and it's that you align religion against science when the two are not mutually exclusive to one another. Religion is not a substitute for Science any more than Science should be a substitute for Religion, in my estimation. Science, Mathematics, Physics, and even Philosophy all have their place in helping us decipher the finer details of creationism if that is your value set. The final hurdle that cannot be overcome with any degree of accuracy is the initial flicker of light that ignited the entire process. I am perfectly comfortable in the cohabitation of my scientific and religious knowledge and have never encountered anything other than theory that directly constituted an infringement upon my faith.
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#37
04-28-2011
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Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
I believe in God and also believe in Science. The two are not opposing ideologies at this point unless your interpretation of biblical texts demands it. Considering that the Bible has been through hundreds of translations and revisions and originated in Hebrew, and there are thoughts in Hebrew that cannot be articulated as simply as they are attempted, taking the Bible and attempting to pick it apart word for word is a fool's errand. Sadly enough, many uneducated people refuse to recognize the ability for such simple topics as evolution to be viable explanations for the world we live in and as a result create a poor reputation for people with the ability to use their brains.

In other words, getting angry at people in Texas for not understanding the nature of the world they live in and falling back on contrived explanations as they interpret from the bible is picking low hanging fruit to feel intellectually superior.

As are knee jerk reactions like, "people who believe in god are stupid", but I digress. Existing on a polar opposite extreme from an idiot makes you an idiot too in most cases.
Do you believe god is going to eternally reward or punish based on whether or not the individuals he created have faith in the "correct" god?

Given that if he exists, he didn't provide us with much (if any) evidence, and he programmed our intelligence in such a way that we require evidence for something to be valid, I find the idea kinda crazy. I think the unfounded notion of god fills a gap we used to have, but that gap has been getting smaller and smaller, and probably will disappear soon. Especially with rumors about this.

Last edited by FraGTaLiTy; 04-28-2011 at 01:15 AM.
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#38
04-28-2011
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Originally Posted by FraGTaLiTy View Post
Do you believe god is going to eternally reward or punish based on whether or not the individuals he created have faith in the "correct" god?

Given that if he exists, he didn't provide us with much (if any) evidence, and he programmed our intelligence in such a way that we require evidence for something to be valid, I find the idea kinda crazy. I think the unfounded notion of god fills a gap we used to have, but that gap has been getting smaller and smaller, and probably will disappear soon. Especially with rumors about this.
I already mentioned in this very thread that my own personal spiritual journey was not at debate here. And that would be even if I had reached some form of meaningful conclusion regarding the issue, which I haven't to be honest.

And one could just as easily say that certain theories in science are unfounded and fill a gap that we currently have regarding the origin of the universe that was divinely inspired. It works both ways when you have an unknown quantity. Any explanation has to be considered viable until or at least "alive", until rendered functionally impossible. That includes the possibility of creationism. It also includes the possibility of spontaneous life being created by mere chance, but the sophistication of life and the nature of the circumstances are just so incredibly unlikely. Having faith in those scientific methods to determine the eventual missing evidence is a faith of some variety.
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#39
04-28-2011
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Originally Posted by Plato View Post
I find myself devoted to creationism because it seems more logical that every complexity of our universe came from an intelligent being. How can nothing create everything?
holy sh.t, you are slow


how old do you think the earth is?

while the idea of a god in itself isn't dumb, seeing how it's an indefinite article, belief in any judeo-christian faith is


"god" and religion always seems to either be a tool for social control or a weak attempt to give our lives "purpose"
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Last edited by mike; 04-28-2011 at 12:43 PM.
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#40
04-28-2011
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Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
And one could just as easily say that certain theories in science are unfounded and fill a gap that we currently have regarding the origin of the universe that was divinely inspired. It works both ways when you have an unknown quantity. Any explanation has to be considered viable until or at least "alive", until rendered functionally impossible. That includes the possibility of creationism. It also includes the possibility of spontaneous life being created by mere chance, but the sophistication of life and the nature of the circumstances are just so incredibly unlikely. Having faith in those scientific methods to determine the eventual missing evidence is a faith of some variety.
One could say that, but that wouldn't be particularly rational. That would be a prioritization of speculation through lack of evidence over, well, evidence.

Am I entirely disregarding the possibility of an intelligent deity of some sort who created life? No (although I find most religious notions of this theory to be completely implausible). However, we have no reason to assume such a deity exists in this particular moment in time because we haven't gathered any evidence for him so far.

Last edited by FraGTaLiTy; 04-28-2011 at 01:03 PM.
 

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