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bjorn_248
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#51
03-30-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davobrosia View Post
I wasn't as clear with my thoughts (my bad) as I wanted to be. I was confusing logic with laws of physics. Logically miracles make sense if divine intervention is a given, it kind of just explains everything. "Oh god was involved? Sure, it's possible then."

My excuse: (because I feel the need to make one) I'm tired and unschooled in the field :P.
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briansoupy
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#52
03-30-2011
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Originally Posted by FraGTaLiTy View Post
It's not flawed because I'm saying it from our perspective. And it is within our current perspective that this god apparently commands us to believe in him, and if we don't, will punish us accordingly.

See the issue?
Well yeah I do. I don't think I argued or would ever argue that Christianity hasn't contradictions. It does, that's one of them.

Still unsure about your foundation though, the 'understanding as a prerequisite for belief' one.
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#53
03-30-2011
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Originally Posted by Plato View Post
There is 0 solid proof. Except for when, in the Bible, God asks for wrongdoers to turn back from their ways. Why would God ask someone to do differently when the initial actions were predestined?
Pump the brakes. There's 0 proof except for that example? :\

The basic premise is why would God do anything, really? So, you're on the right track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plato View Post
You guys are saying that God knows our destiny and future, with his omnipotence and omniscience, yet you think God is ruled by his power. That is just wrong. You are insinuating that God is not in control of his power, yet you believe our destiny is controlled by him.
Can't even really wrap my head around what the hell you're aiming for lol. Sorry, it's just weird; "not [have power] over his power?"

Start off with God having omniscience and omnipotence.
God decides to create human race.
When God does this through its omnipotence, its knowledge of its creations already precedes its action of creating them through its omniscience.
How can God fashion something without an idea of it in the first place? And for an omniscient being, it would not just be an idea, but a idea that includes a culmination of all things that the creation will be and do.
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#54
03-30-2011
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Originally Posted by briansoupy View Post
Well yeah I do. I don't think I argued or would ever argue that Christianity hasn't contradictions. It does, that's one of them.

Still unsure about your foundation though, the 'understanding as a prerequisite for belief' one.
Hypothetical situation: I have a 4 month old daughter. I am going to lock her in a cage for a day if she doesn't understand that 9*9=81.

Sure, I may be right, and she may understand that it is correct in 8 years. But even when she gets older and understands it, she's still going to call me an absolutely heartless *sshole. She won't love and respect me. And for good reason.

Apply that concept to god punishing us for not believing in him during our time on earth as a human. Even if it turns out he is correct (again, hypothetical here), and I understand that he is correct after I die and go to a hypothetical after-life, I will still have 0 respect for him, nor will I love him. And for good reason.

Last edited by FraGTaLiTy; 03-30-2011 at 02:38 PM.
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#55
03-30-2011
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Still didn't say God was a good guy. I'm not a Christian. Who are you arguing with?

Here let me clarify in your terms: I have a 4 year old daughter. I tell her 9*9=81. She might believe me in spite of not understanding the concept of multiplication and spite of not being able to prove it with her limited understanding.

Seriously just discuss me and what I'm literally writing, not stuff I may or may not hold true. Just because I don't make a point of expressing that I agree with you doesn't mean I don't. Hell last time I even did make a point of expressing my agreement and you're still arguing with Christians in absentia.

Punishment for non-belief is bullshit; especially so when one cannot understand what is to be believed.
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#56
03-30-2011
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She also might not be able to understand your explanation and tell you it's 99, to which you might respond by cutting her life short and kicking her out of the house.
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#57
03-30-2011
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Originally Posted by briansoupy View Post
Still didn't say God was a good guy. I'm not a Christian. Who are you arguing with?

Here let me clarify in your terms: I have a 4 year old daughter. I tell her 9*9=81. She might believe me in spite of not understanding the concept of multiplication and spite of not being able to prove it with her limited understanding.

Seriously just discuss me and what I'm literally writing, not stuff I may or may not hold true. Just because I don't make a point of expressing that I agree with you doesn't mean I don't. Hell last time I even did make a point of expressing my agreement and you're still arguing with Christians in absentia.
The concept of a deity punishing people eternally for not believing in him is all I've been discussion in the last couple of posts. To make your analogy applicable to this particular discussion, there would need to be a severe punishment for her if she doesn't believe what you said... even though she clearly doesn't have the ability to understand it at this particular time.

Last edited by FraGTaLiTy; 03-30-2011 at 02:48 PM.
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#58
03-30-2011
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Originally Posted by davobrosia View Post
She also might not be able to understand your explanation and tell you it's 99, to which you might respond by cutting her life short and kicking her out of the house.
Yeah well the Almighty perpetuated by some fundamental folk is a Draconian role-crazy asshole

@Frag: I think I have dramatically misinterpreted your argument. In my head it sounded like you began by trying to refute the existence of God with this
Quote:
Why would god grant us logic, the only ability we have for understanding anything, and then limit it in such a way we can't understand him?
Which you later expanded on by suggesting that to belief presumes understanding. That was an extremely interesting point to me, much more interesting than repeating the contradictions in the Bible which we are (almost) all aware of by now.
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to say god, is to sing god
to sing to god, is to draw near to god
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Last edited by briansoupy; 03-30-2011 at 02:54 PM.
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#59
03-30-2011
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Originally Posted by briansoupy View Post
Yeah well the Almighty perpetuated by some fundamental folk is a Draconian role-crazy asshole
The problem is that this belief is actually the majority when it comes to religion. Islam and Christianity are the two current biggest religions (I think), and both explicitly believe in that concept.

Quote:
Originally Posted by briansoupy View Post
Yeah well the Almighty perpetuated by some fundamental folk is a Draconian role-crazy asshole

@Frag: I think I have dramatically misinterpreted your argument. In my head it sounded like you began by trying to refute the existence of God with this

Which you later expanded on by suggesting that to belief presumes understanding. That was an extremely interesting point to me, much more interesting than repeating the contradictions in the Bible which we are (almost) all aware of by now.
Ah, no that's not my attention. I'm agnostic, so i still believe there's a possibility there could be something greater beyond us. However, I do not consider many of the notions from popular religions to be candidates.

Last edited by FraGTaLiTy; 03-30-2011 at 02:57 PM.
bjorn_248
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#60
03-30-2011
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Here's another perspective. Talked about this with my friend who took a few philosophy classes.

What's wrong with having god as a non-influencing observer who exists outside of time and therefore sees all decisions that you make of your own free will without interfering?
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