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FraGTaLiTy
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#41
03-30-2011
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Originally Posted by davobrosia View Post


Of course, there are actually more verses supporting the idea that the Christian god is not omniscient by any stretch of the imagination than there are that support it. Irreconcilable contradictions all up ins.

Also, plenty of cases of god repenting. Oops.
Can you share those with us?
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#42
03-30-2011
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Originally Posted by FraGTaLiTy View Post
Why would god grant us logic, the only ability we have for understanding anything, and then limit it in such a way we can't understand him? Why would someone who purposely did this then punish/reward us eternally based on whether or not we believe in something that exceeded our intellectual capability: him? How can this god be called "just" and "fair"?

It doesn't add up.
Wait what. If it did add up wouldn't that make God logically understandable? Just saying that by assuming it should "add up" you've already assumed what you are proving. I mean it is silly to use logic to argue against logic but it is equally silly to use logic to argue for logic. That would be like saying God exists because God says God exists (assuming what needs to proven). Like I said, an exercise in futility, nothing worth talking about here. Just accept (or reject) the possibility of an understanding or knowledge that transcends reason, and is based on an intuition or feeling or emotion.
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FraGTaLiTy
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#43
03-30-2011
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Originally Posted by briansoupy View Post
Wait what. If it did add up wouldn't that make God logically understandable? Just saying that by assuming it should "add up" you've already assumed what you are proving. I mean it is silly to use logic to argue against logic but it is equally silly to use logic to argue for logic. That would be like saying God exists because God says God exists (assuming what needs to proven). Like I said, an exercise in futility, nothing worth talking about here. Just accept (or reject) the possibility of an understanding or knowledge that transcends reason, and is based on an intuition or feeling or emotion.
I think you're missing the point. The concept that a creator would limit our understanding so that we can't understand him, and then punish us eternally if we don't believe in him, is the very opposite of just, loving, and fair.

Furthermore, if god defies logic, we cannot understand anything about him, which makes any religious text that describes or talks about god literally futile and meaningless.

Last edited by FraGTaLiTy; 03-30-2011 at 01:47 PM.
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#44
03-30-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FraGTaLiTy View Post
Why would god grant us logic, the only ability we have for understanding anything, and then limit it in such a way we can't understand him? Why would someone who purposely did this then punish/reward us eternally based on whether or not we believe in something that exceeded our intellectual capability: him? How can this god be called "just" and "fair"?

It doesn't add up.
I said faith. All beliefs must not be founded in logic. Love isn't logical, to provide a non-religious example. I haven't read the bible myself, but there seem to be a lot of events (miracles) that are not explained by logic given there. You can't honestly just now be saying that we need to use logic to decipher the bible...
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davobrosia
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#45
03-30-2011
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I don't feel like quoting, but here's links.

http://bible.cc/genesis/6-6.htm
http://bible.cc/exodus/32-14.htm
http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/32-36.htm
http://bible.cc/1_samuel/15-11.htm
Two funny things about that one. First, a few verses later (http://bible.cc/1_samuel/15-29.htm) it is said that god never lies or changes his mind. Second, god is butthurt that Saul didn't complete his mission of genocide against the Amalekites.
http://bible.cc/1_samuel/15-35.htm
http://bible.cc/2_samuel/24-16.htm
http://bible.cc/1_chronicles/21-15.htm
http://niv.scripturetext.com/isaiah/38-1.htm
http://bible.cc/jeremiah/15-6.htm
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...A8&version=NIV
http://bible.cc/jeremiah/26-3.htm
There are a few more from Jeremiah that get at the same idea as that one.
http://bible.cc/amos/7-3.htm
http://bible.cc/amos/7-6.htm
http://bible.cc/jonah/3-10.htm

God sure changes his mind an awful lot, huh.
Incidentally, these all sort of quash any apologist's copout of "oh well god's outside of time blah blah blah."
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#46
03-30-2011
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Originally Posted by bjorn_248 View Post
I said faith. All beliefs must not be founded in logic. Love isn't logical, to provide a non-religious example. I haven't read the bible myself, but there seem to be a lot of events (miracles) that are not explained by logic given there. You can't honestly just now be saying that we need to use logic to decipher the bible...
This is actually a longstanding theological tradition.
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikiped...iki/Tertullian
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Fideism
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#47
03-30-2011
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Originally Posted by FraGTaLiTy View Post
The concept that a creator would limit our understanding so that we can't understand him, and then punish us eternally if we don't believe in him, is the very opposite of just, loving, and fair.
God allegedly moves in mysterious ways. That's a pretty inane saying but the point seems legitimate.

And more important than some cop-out saying, your statement is flawed in that you use the word 'understand' and then 'believe' as if they were the same. Either on purpose or accident you are continuing with this highly debatable foundation stating that understanding is a prerequisite for belief.
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to say god, is to sing god
to sing to god, is to draw near to god
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Last edited by briansoupy; 03-30-2011 at 01:57 PM.
FraGTaLiTy
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#48
03-30-2011
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Originally Posted by bjorn_248 View Post
I said faith. All beliefs must not be founded in logic. Love isn't logical, to provide a non-religious example. I haven't read the bible myself, but there seem to be a lot of events (miracles) that are not explained by logic given there. You can't honestly just now be saying that we need to use logic to decipher the bible...
Don't you find god eternally torturing people for not having "blind faith" in something that seems to be a logical contradiction in our own mind a bit... irrational?

I know plenty of people who have this presumption that "god defies logic therefore his contradictions aren't really contradictions yadayadayada", but the problem is that IF he defies logic, any religion that states anything about god is just as false and just as true as any other conceivable illogical and/or logical idea about god.

Nothing could be deduced, anything would be equally fair game from our perspective.

Last edited by FraGTaLiTy; 03-30-2011 at 02:02 PM.
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#49
03-30-2011
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Originally Posted by briansoupy View Post
I don't especially like reminding myself of Bono, but God allegedly moves in mysterious ways. That's a pretty inane saying but the point seems legitimate. Your statement is flawed in that you use the word 'understand' and then 'believe' as if they were the same.

Either on purpose or accident you are continuing with this highly debatable foundation stating that understanding is a prerequisite for belief.
It's not flawed because I'm saying it from our perspective. And it is within our current perspective that this god apparently commands us to believe in him, and if we don't, will punish us accordingly.

See the issue?
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#50
03-30-2011
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