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davobrosia
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#21
03-27-2011
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Because he's a sociopathic sadist.
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#22
03-27-2011
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I think having an unfounded "belief" in something bigger can be very beneficial... but the belief that if other people don't belief your way, they are eternally punished... I find that straight unhealthy and dangerous.
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#23
03-27-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davobrosia View Post
I think the bigger leap is accepting determinism and trying to reconcile that with a futile belief in free will.


Why is free will so important?
Back in my religious days, this pretty much paralleled my thinking:
Quote:
Since God is omniscient, God has foreknowledge, meaning he knows what everyone will do in the future and what any individual would do in any given situation. This foreknowledge enables God to have a plan for everyone's life. For instance, if God wants a particular action to occur, he knows who would choose to do that action, and under what circumstances they would choose it; thus he is able to plan for it to happen. However, God's knowing what choices we will make is simply knowledge - it doesn't remove our free will, for we are still the ones making the choices.
http://www.rationalchristianity.net/free_will.html

Obviously shit started to go awry when I had to rationalize that statement with God's omnipotence along with his omniscience during creation.

If God is what Catholics and other Christian sects really want God to be, then Cavlivinism I feel would pretty much have to be right from a logical sense. You can't separate God's omniscience and omnipotence and walk this fine line when trying to get around the problem free will presents. For me it really just boils down to another massive justification of religious thinking by the Church and its scholars to get around the logic that would rationalize its beliefs to be incorrect. I still wish I knew my lines of reasoning back in high school so I could better spell out where I fudged up everything.
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#24
03-28-2011
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This thread is bringing back the old-timers, good stuff.
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#25
03-28-2011
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You could have pseudo free-will by assuming an infinite number of universes with all possible choices being explored. Therefore in the multiverse all choices are available but an individual is still bound by the universe they exist in.

By the way, I had this exact same discussion (basically laying out most of those points) with my very religious roommate last year, we had about a good 2 hour talk on just this subject, we all felt better afterwards .
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#26
03-28-2011
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different perspective, here's R.R. Llinas (neuroscientist)

Quote:
I understand that free will does not exist; I understand that it is the only rational
way to relate to each other, that is to assume that it does, although we deeply know
that it doesn’t.
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#27
03-28-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjorn_248 View Post
You could have pseudo free-will by assuming an infinite number of universes with all possible choices being explored. Therefore in the multiverse all choices are available but an individual is still bound by the universe they exist in.

By the way, I had this exact same discussion (basically laying out most of those points) with my very religious roommate last year, we had about a good 2 hour talk on just this subject, we all felt better afterwards .
Hypothetically speaking, if such a god existed he would still know the exact choices you end up taking in reality regardless of the amount of alternative universes, would he not?
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#28
03-28-2011
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That's what I meant by "still bound by the universe they exist in."
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#29
03-28-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plato View Post
Here's what I have to say on the matter, from what I've read through these three, very interesting pages. VERY interesting.

I'd like to say, firstly, that IF God is omnipotent and omniscient (we all can agree that he is, assuming you believe in the existence in a higher authority in this universe), having all that power and forethought; do you believe that this God can't control it? I mean, a singer doesn't sing 24 hours a day, right? I don't recall Tony Hawk doing the 900 (spareee would know what I'm talking about) every second of the day. How is it that you guys believe that God is as childish as not being able to control himself? That just astounds me. This would lead me to assume, i don't know about you all, that God is able to choose whether or not he wants to peer into the future or not. He definitely would have the power to, but why would he want to ALL THE TIME? I just don't subscribe to determinism and the predestination belief. If you do believe in that, then why go to work? Why eat healthy, like that's going to extend your lifespan with your future already decided for you? Why look both ways before you cross the street? Why drive the speed limit? Why follow the rules, when they don't equate to sh.t in the grand scheme of things?
You're interchanging actions with thought; God already knows, and its omniscience precedes its actions, in this case creation.
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#30
03-28-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muRda View Post
You're interchanging actions with thought; God already knows, and its omniscience precedes its actions, in this case creation.
Exactly. The incompatibility remains unless you assume there exists something that god doesn't know, which contradicts true omnipotence.
 

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