Halo 2 Forum > Off-topic > Debate Forum > Religion Debate
 
 
Display Modes Thread Tools
SeaHan
Wu-Tang Banga
SeaHan's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Slums of Shaolin
Posts: 3,812
Subtract from SeaHan's ReputationAdd to SeaHan's Reputation SeaHan is a novice
Send a message via AIM to SeaHan Send a message via Skype™ to SeaHan
#181
10-26-2011
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TooMuchButtHair View Post
Groups or populations of random events are extremely predictable.
Dr. Hari Seldon would be the man to talk to about that. The leading and most esteemed thinker in the field of Psychohistory.
Deadly Buni
Ezekiel 23:19-21
Deadly Buni's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,060
Subtract from Deadly Buni's ReputationAdd to Deadly Buni's Reputation Deadly Buni is a novice
#182
10-26-2011
Default

It really depends how you define free will, free mostly imo. I would say actors have the ability to act upon their desires, but their desires are shaped by their experiences/nurture (including options). If the actor has the ability acting or not, free will is present. But, you could say one is so conditioned that freedom does not exist, but is instead a result of a set number of choices. Except that viewpoint disregards creativity and randomness which have too many variables to understand structurally.




Last edited by Deadly Buni; 10-26-2011 at 01:26 AM.
SeaHan
Wu-Tang Banga
SeaHan's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Slums of Shaolin
Posts: 3,812
Subtract from SeaHan's ReputationAdd to SeaHan's Reputation SeaHan is a novice
Send a message via AIM to SeaHan Send a message via Skype™ to SeaHan
XxDevilDawg
Level 26
XxDevilDawg's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 937
Subtract from XxDevilDawg's ReputationAdd to XxDevilDawg's Reputation XxDevilDawg is a novice
Send a message via AIM to XxDevilDawg Send a message via Skype™ to XxDevilDawg
#184
02-01-2012
Default

This is the result of an attempt to comprehend the incomprehensible nature of God; hence, the establishment of many sects that formulate theology that is influenced by human understanding as opposed to divine doctrines, such as Calvinism. Foreknowledge and predestiny are two ENTIRELY different things, it is a shame that you associated them together...God does not make something happen because he foreknows it, he foreknows it because it will happen.

Using Dr. William Lane Craig's simple analogy for those of you that are applying a simple and ignorant mindset upon a concept far more complex than anything else conceivable; a barometer can determine the weather, but it does not mean that it is the force causing the weather.

It is amusing how carefully the premises in the OP are worded as to avoid logical fallacies. Also, why would you quote your "own" explanation?

"4. God could have created life and the universe in any way that is logically consistent because he is omnipotent."

Are you arguing that God's omnipotence is bounded by the fact that he cannot create a universe in which events can unfold without his divine intervention? That would contradict the definition of omnipotence. Oh that's right, this argument would turn to shit had it not been for the second premise in which limitations of the human mind are imposed upon God's divine nature, haha. I do not need to refute something that refutes itself.

"You are completely culpable for everything you're supposed to do, even if it's not known to you" -Canibus

Keep trying, people have been trying since the spawn of consciousness-it won't happen. That is a promise, and I do not need God's foreknowledge to determine that, I am simply aware that a proof either for or against God would contradict the purpose of life.


YouTube
Twitter
Twitch

AIM - devilstudios

Last edited by XxDevilDawg; 02-01-2012 at 05:32 PM.
bjorn_248
Bumbling Buffoon
bjorn_248's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: THF IRC
Posts: 5,296
Subtract from bjorn_248's ReputationAdd to bjorn_248's Reputation bjorn_248 is bustin' chills and getting paided bjorn_248 is bustin' chills and getting paided bjorn_248 is bustin' chills and getting paided bjorn_248 is bustin' chills and getting paided bjorn_248 is bustin' chills and getting paided bjorn_248 is bustin' chills and getting paided
Send a message via AIM to bjorn_248 Send a message via Skype™ to bjorn_248
#185
02-02-2012
Default

I read in a paper (lol can't remember) last semester that any argument that results in a proof for or against the existence of God is flawed. It's true. Addressing the topic of the existence of god through reason is a waste of time, as far as I'm concerned.

Sent from my phone using magic
Errare humanum est

Atiemark <3

Mac Encoding

Render Farm

IRC Server

ENCODING PROGRAM
davobrosia
Ask Z for $50
davobrosia's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 22,593
Subtract from davobrosia's ReputationAdd to davobrosia's Reputation davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000
Send a message via AIM to davobrosia
#186
02-02-2012
Default

>Dr. William Lane Craig
>Trinity Evangelical Divinity School


Just kidding. But seriously fuck everything about everything you posted. Let's get started.

Quote:
This is the result of an attempt to comprehend the incomprehensible nature of God; hence, the establishment of many sects that formulate theology that is influenced by human understanding as opposed to divine doctrines, such as Calvinism.


Read some fucking Kant.

Quote:
Foreknowledge and predestiny are two ENTIRELY different things, it is a shame that you associated them together
They really, really aren't when we're dealing with absolute, infallible foreknowledge. You know, like in the case of your sky fairy.
A little light reading that you're not going to bother with.

Quote:
God does not make something happen because he foreknows it, he foreknows it because it will happen.
Really? No shit? God doesn't make something happen by knowing it? How does he do it then?

En arche en ho Lógos, kai ho Lógos en pros ton Theón, kai Theós en ho Lógos.

Looks like skyfairy has to speak it. But wait a minute--Logos can also refer to thought and knowledge. So...yeah. I guess the leap from knowledge to actualization actually is how things went.

But that's just my flexing my dick around to show you how little you know about your own theology. You've actually accidentally stumbled on a philosophical problem older than your mythology.
Quote:
God does not make something happen because he foreknows it, he foreknows it because it will happen.
Congrats, you've just placed your skyfairy secondary to the natural, uninterrupted and unmanipulated unfolding of events and thus rendered him powerless. This is a variation of the Euthyphro problem, and you've chosen exactly wrong.

Quote:
Using Dr. William Lane Craig's simple analogy for those of you that are applying a simple and ignorant mindset upon a concept far more complex than anything else conceivable; a barometer can determine the weather, but it does not mean that it is the force causing the weather.
That analogy is dogshit, and I'm pretty sure you know it. Ask yourself: how is a barometer unlike my skyfairy? The answer may surprise you. To start, a barometer isn't, by the very essence of its existence and the properties attributed to it, unable to be wrong. Now ask yourself: if your god knows something will happen, can that thing not happen?

Quote:
It is amusing how carefully the premises in the OP are worded as to avoid logical fallacies.
It's amusing that you find rigor amusing. It's also unsurprising, especially given your readiness to swallow Craig's bullshit.

Quote:
Are you arguing that God's omnipotence is bounded by the fact that he cannot create a universe in which events can unfold without his divine intervention? That would contradict the definition of omnipotence. Oh that's right, this argument would turn to shit had it not been for the second premise in which limitations of the human mind are imposed upon God's divine nature, haha. I do not need to refute something that refutes itself.
If you knew your theology, you'd know that no serious theologian considers omnipotence to include the ability to maintain logical contradiction. If you want to allow it, you might as well just stop thinking about it entirely, because from then on there's no point in bothering. Enjoy your fideism.

Quote:
Keep trying, people have been trying since the spawn of consciousness-it won't happen. That is a promise, and I do not need God's foreknowledge to determine that, I am simply aware that a proof either for or against God would contradict the purpose of life.


Read some fucking Kant. At least then you'll only be 200 years behind the curve.
Spoiler!

Last edited by davobrosia; 02-02-2012 at 12:22 PM.
briansoupy
Level 31
briansoupy's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: chicago
Posts: 2,121
Subtract from briansoupy's ReputationAdd to briansoupy's Reputation briansoupy is a novice
Send a message via AIM to briansoupy Send a message via Skype™ to briansoupy
#187
02-02-2012
Default


i mean yea SeaHan that is like exactly how I feel about this entire thread.
Oh! Sweet Nuthin'
Quote:
to say god, is to sing god
to sing to god, is to draw near to god
to the nearness that is god
XxDevilDawg
Level 26
XxDevilDawg's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 937
Subtract from XxDevilDawg's ReputationAdd to XxDevilDawg's Reputation XxDevilDawg is a novice
Send a message via AIM to XxDevilDawg Send a message via Skype™ to XxDevilDawg
#188
02-13-2012
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by davobrosia View Post
If you knew your theology
You came to the assumption that I was a Christian because I used an analogy from Craig? Wow...just wow...I would assume anyone who admires Leonardo da Vinci's flying machine constructions is a homosexual right?

I am not dumb enough to be Christian, nor will I ever consider it due to the severe problems within its theology. On the other hand, I am not arrogant and ignorant enough to declare myself an Atheist. You also take no time in attacking Craig, which makes the Atheist prophet, Richard Dawkins, look like even more of a pussy for refusing to debate him. Even if God's Foreknowledge was synonymous with Predestination, does that also suggest that God already determined your thoughts, feelings, emotions, and desires? Oh that's right, you believe that consciousness is the mere movement of matter, and that because there is no "skyfairy", that all abstractions are chemical epiphenomena. How utterly pathetic. Oh, Kant believed in God, freedom, and immortality because he felt that they are practical necessities for one's life and were the "sine qua non" of moral life.

The level of arrogance I constantly witness within so many Atheists is sickening. "The greatest act of faith takes place when a man finally decides that he is not God." -Johann Wolfgang Goethe


YouTube
Twitter
Twitch

AIM - devilstudios

Last edited by XxDevilDawg; 02-13-2012 at 11:00 AM.
davobrosia
Ask Z for $50
davobrosia's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 22,593
Subtract from davobrosia's ReputationAdd to davobrosia's Reputation davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000
Send a message via AIM to davobrosia
#189
02-13-2012
Default

You've never heard expressions like "if you knew your arithmetic"? If you knew your idioms...

Quote:
You came to the assumption that I was a Christian because I used an analogy from Craig? Wow...just wow...I would assume anyone who admires Leonardo da Vinci's flying machine constructions is a homosexual right?
I assumed you are Christian because your posts in a thread specifically addressing Christianity are virtually indistinguishable from typical Christian (more specifically, Protestant) apologia and because you deferred to a master-level Christian debater and thought it was actually a worthwhile reference to make (protip: the argument of his that you've paraphrased is dogshit. Lap it up!) If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...


Quote:
On the other hand, I am not arrogant and ignorant enough to declare myself an Atheist.
Shut the fuck up.

Quote:
You also take no time in attacking Craig, which makes the Atheist prophet, Richard Dawkins, look like even more of a pussy for refusing to debate him.
Shut the actual fuck up. I don't have much more respect for Dawkins' theological work than I do for Craig's. But hey, keep that misogynistic language--it's definitely distancing you from those "dumb" Christians.

Quote:
Even if God's Foreknowledge was synonymous with Predestination, does that also suggest that God already determined your thoughts, feelings, emotions, and desires?
Yes.
Quote:
Oh that's right, you believe that consciousness is the mere movement of matter, and that because there is no "skyfairy", that all abstractions are chemical epiphenomena.
Oh, that's right, I never fucking said that and your assumptions just reveal how fucking little you know about me, so shut the fuck up. I don't see the need to prove anything to some worthless internet shitbaron, so I won't bother detailing just how fucking far out of your element you are if you think you know my philosophical slant from Adam's.

Quote:
How utterly pathetic. Oh, Kant believed in God, freedom, and immortality because he felt that they are practical necessities for one's life and were the "sine qua non" of moral life.
How utterly pathetic. Oh, you didn't believe in reading the next sentence, where I suggested that Kant has been outmoded for 200 years. If you actually thought I was throwing my hat in as a Kantian, you should do yourself a favor and shut the fuck up.



You call me arrogant; I call you a blathering imbecile.


PS: doing stupid shit like calling someone an "atheist prophet" and whining about arrogance is sort of exactly why people assume you're a Christian. Work on that.
Spoiler!

Last edited by davobrosia; 02-13-2012 at 02:38 PM.
Cursed Lemon
Darren Helm's Bitch
Cursed Lemon's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Location: Location:
Posts: 14,766
Subtract from Cursed Lemon's ReputationAdd to Cursed Lemon's Reputation Cursed Lemon IS OVER 9000 Cursed Lemon IS OVER 9000 Cursed Lemon IS OVER 9000 Cursed Lemon IS OVER 9000 Cursed Lemon IS OVER 9000 Cursed Lemon IS OVER 9000 Cursed Lemon IS OVER 9000 Cursed Lemon IS OVER 9000 Cursed Lemon IS OVER 9000 Cursed Lemon IS OVER 9000 Cursed Lemon IS OVER 9000
Send a message via AIM to Cursed Lemon Send a message via MSN to Cursed Lemon Send a message via Yahoo to Cursed Lemon
#190
02-17-2012
Default

I don't even agree with Davo on most things philosophical but I'm still laughing my ass off.


Elmo <3
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off