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davobrosia
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#141
08-12-2011
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Actually, most forms of logic are fairly closed systems. It's fundamentally broken by several paradoxes and problems, but it's still complete.
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#142
08-12-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davobrosia View Post
Actually, most forms of logic are fairly closed systems. It's fundamentally broken by several paradoxes and problems, but it's still complete.
Question for you, because I don't have the answer:

Did we discover the rules of logic or did we create it? Are our rules of logic an inherent truth within this universe, or is it a set of rules humans made that is conveniently consistent with our subjective perception of reality? Is our logic's reliability just a necessary assumption for our cultural and/or species' progression, or is it actually universally self evident?
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#143
08-12-2011
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I don't think anyone can answer that question. As far as I'm concerned, everything we know is man-made.
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#144
08-12-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FraGTaLiTy View Post
Question for you, because I don't have the answer:

Did we discover the rules of logic or did we create it? Are our rules of logic an inherent truth within this universe, or is it a set of rules humans made that is conveniently consistent with our subjective perception of reality? Is our logic's reliability just a necessary assumption for our cultural and/or species' progression, or is it actually universally self evident?
Logic is simple. It's the reason why you don't continue to look for something after you've found it. It can't be man-made, because you're already born with an innate sense for such simple ideas. And, if logic didn't exist, neither would mathematics, philosophy, etc. It's not a chicken-or-the-egg argument either; without logic, we would have no idea how to derive logic. You can't create it, and it's relative to the universe to which it is applied.


And as for free will, obviously it would contradict Christianity if God exists. Many Christians I've met believe that there is no free will, that everything is predetermined. One of the most common arguments against God takes this a step further, saying that since the premise that free will is against Christianity is true, then either of these two must also be true:

A) God isn't omnipotent (implying that free will exists)
B) God predestines people to be punishes and there's nothing they can do about it (implying that God is, at worst, malevolent, and at best neutral. The Bible (if it can be believed), states that God is love)


Last edited by Afraid; 08-12-2011 at 01:50 AM.
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#145
08-12-2011
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Back to free-will again?
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#146
08-26-2011
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Quote:
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Logic is simple. It's the reason why you don't continue to look for something after you've found it.
That's not really pure logic. It works on assumptions which may not even be valid. I actually generally check a few more places, just to be sure. To be fair, I'm an anomaly, and have occasionally found the thing again, or not found it where it is.
On an unrelated note, the notion of location isn't as solid as you'd hope. It's quite possible for the same thing to be in two locations, although this is generally apparent only on the quantum level.
Quote:
It can't be man-made, because you're already born with an innate sense for such simple ideas.
That might be true, but I suspect not as you're thinking about it. Logical thinking doesn't come naturally to plenty of people, and even if it does, faulty assumptions can make it useless. Logic has no ties to the world we live in until you make assumptions about it.
Quote:
And, if logic didn't exist, neither would mathematics, philosophy, etc. It's not a chicken-or-the-egg argument either; without logic, we would have no idea how to derive logic. You can't create it, and it's relative to the universe to which it is applied.
I'm not sure that the possibility of logic not existing even makes sense.
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#147
08-26-2011
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Oh my god it's Froggy.


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#148
08-28-2011
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Love you Froggy, you my boy, blue
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#149
08-29-2011
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Oh my god it's Froggy.
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Love you Froggy, you my boy, blue
Hehe. Thanks. I'm still around, I just haven't seen much stuff to post on.

I suppose I could start a topic on some of my latest exploits into the realm of the improbable, unlikely, and pretty much just strange.
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#150
09-01-2011
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I know this isn't really about the issue you are bringing up (religion) but we've been talking about Free Will in my intro to philosophy class and at first we were presented with the argument from action (for determinism) then the argument from playing at cards (for free will). My initial thought was that the argument from action sounds pretty convincing, and that if we change the definition of free will from an instantaneous conscious decision (magical shit, right?) to a decision that "the self" makes, they are totally compatible with one another. Then this week in lecture we went over Ayer's argument that shows that there is no conflict between free will and determinism, and I think I'll just take the position of soft determinism now. Free will, as defined by Ayer, which I agree with, is possible in a completely causal universe. Both intro to philosophy and metaphysics have been really cool so far .

A causal universe leaves room for an omniscient god, as well.
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Last edited by bjorn_248; 09-01-2011 at 10:48 AM.
 

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