Halo 2 Forum > Off-topic > Debate Forum > Religion Debate
 
 
Display Modes Thread Tools
davobrosia
Ask Z for $50
davobrosia's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 22,593
Subtract from davobrosia's ReputationAdd to davobrosia's Reputation davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000
Send a message via AIM to davobrosia
#111
04-01-2011
Default

Your fixation on timelines and various hypothetical rules is distracting you from the issue. The issue is whether future action can be known with absolute certainty or is determined by the laws of physics. If it can or is, nothing we do will be other than what was already known/determined, and since we can't do otherwise in that situation, we don't have free will whether it feels like it or not.
Spoiler!

Last edited by davobrosia; 04-01-2011 at 05:05 PM.
bjorn_248
Bumbling Buffoon
bjorn_248's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: THF IRC
Posts: 5,296
Subtract from bjorn_248's ReputationAdd to bjorn_248's Reputation bjorn_248 is bustin' chills and getting paided bjorn_248 is bustin' chills and getting paided bjorn_248 is bustin' chills and getting paided bjorn_248 is bustin' chills and getting paided bjorn_248 is bustin' chills and getting paided bjorn_248 is bustin' chills and getting paided
Send a message via AIM to bjorn_248 Send a message via Skype™ to bjorn_248
#112
04-01-2011
Default

Would it be wrong of me to think of time as infinite and without beginning or end? That's what I concluded when I was in middle school (if you want me to explain the logic behind it...lol no, I was in middle school), just wondering if there's something wrong with that belief, basically any inherent logical contradiction.

Let me just ask this again, because I want to know.

Would free will exist in this scenario? We live in a universe in which there is no omniscient being, and no physical ability to time travel, yet we can still only make one choice (as defined earlier...and by common sense). Not looking into the future, only the past, we still only chose to do one thing. Once our life is over, it can be looked at as a movie (hence, why we determine the movie, not the movie determines us) so to speak, as a series of choices. There must be a clear definition of the present as well as the inability to look forward in time (which I believe are both satisfied by the current universe as we know it, assuming there is no omniscient being).

The only reason I keep ragging at this is because I just want to come to a conclusion of what DOES satisfy free will and what doesn't, so I can have a better understanding of what it is.

This second scenario will sound dumb, but I have to keep going, I can't stop.

Let's say that at the beginning of the universe there was an omniscient being that created everything including humans with the capacity for free will. The timeline, which I annoyingly keep bringing up, of their lives would be created at that instant, as well as the timeline of everything else. The timeline, however, was created using the initial conditions of free will, hence, humans are creating the timeline. Since those humans, and their free will, were created by that omniscient being, I assume that would be only the illusion of true free will as you see it, because our choices are restricted by our own free will, which was created by that omniscient being, therefore it was determined. I'm just trying to clear this up, sorry for being stubborn and making you repeat yourself.

I assume you will answer, first condition has free will, second has the illusion of free will, but none. Please confirm or deny . Thanks for your patience :/.
Errare humanum est

Atiemark <3

Mac Encoding

Render Farm

IRC Server

ENCODING PROGRAM

Last edited by bjorn_248; 04-01-2011 at 10:44 PM.
davobrosia
Ask Z for $50
davobrosia's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 22,593
Subtract from davobrosia's ReputationAdd to davobrosia's Reputation davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000
Send a message via AIM to davobrosia
#113
04-01-2011
Default

In your first scenario, there is no free will. Just because we can't look forward doesn't mean the world isn't deterministic. Even if it feels free, it isn't.

In your second scenario, there is no free will as well.



Here's some reading you might find edifying:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standar...inst_free_will
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fr...foreknowledge/
Spoiler!
muRda
Godzilla vs. MLK
muRda's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,731
Subtract from muRda's ReputationAdd to muRda's Reputation muRda IS OVER 9000 muRda IS OVER 9000 muRda IS OVER 9000 muRda IS OVER 9000 muRda IS OVER 9000 muRda IS OVER 9000 muRda IS OVER 9000 muRda IS OVER 9000 muRda IS OVER 9000 muRda IS OVER 9000 muRda IS OVER 9000
#114
04-02-2011
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plato View Post
Well, you know what I mean. I was sort of being sarcastic with the "0 proof" statement, but yeah. Sorry for the confusion.
Haha no probs, you just seemed to be rolling down hill a little too fast with confidence to make your point.

Quote:
A fundamental point that I'm trying to make is that God, assuming you do believe in a higher power (if you don't, bear with me), can choose whether or not he WANTS to see the future. He isn't controlled by that ability.
Nah, religion's greatest failure was giving me a proper education on its beliefs and history. Reverted slowly to atheism through my last year of high school/freshman year of college.

Well, before we even dive into this: why must we subscribe to idea that God is bound by human conditions such as wants?

And, like davo said, you really can't treat knowledge as a verb here; it's only confusing you more. Knowledge would have to precede action in any circumstance I can conjure up.

Quote:
Does the knowledge of our future decisions really make our future predestined?
Yes. Given that knowledge precedes action and that God is an omniscient being, he will have known the culmination of its and our actions.

Quote:
Is there a difference between the knowledge of our decisions and forcing the decision (determinism)?
Never read into determinism, and I'm just not sure what you mean by that.

Quote:
Isn't this the same with us? God created us, but MUST he know every decision we will make thereafter? I'm not saying he can't, because it is definitely within his power.
It's not a question of can it or not. You need to separate the powers of omnipotence and omniscience, both of which are pretty well established characteristics needed for the spiritual being in question.

Yes, God must, because it already knows. I think what you're trying to argue is that it can essentially un-know something, which is just a really weak way of trying to justify this whole debate to make any logical sense.
McDevy
Soshified
McDevy's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Skag Gully
Posts: 10,941
Subtract from McDevy's ReputationAdd to McDevy's Reputation McDevy is a novice
#115
04-04-2011
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plato View Post
I know what you're saying, but is God bound by our logic? Of course not, I agree with that. But our conclusions about God derives from human logic, does it not? Which would mean that we are putting God within the realm of humans limited understanding of anything. We can only assume the facts, and make a best guess, otherwise a person searches for something to believe in.

Knowledge precedes every action that you can conjure up, but your knowledge is limited, as is everyone else's including mine. I'm just saying we can't rule out something just because it seems illogical. Most theists believe something solely by faith without explanation. The proof will come at some point, and everything will be exposed sooner or later.

(I kinda went off on some tangent there, sorry . Just expressing myself)
Makes you kind of think of, you know, why you are arguing for a god of which is constructed out of the very human psyche and logic which created the idea in the first place, right?

Yeah, bothers me too.

You're basically outing any and all arguments for a god by conjuring an idea of which was made in one's own mind and then saying it is excused from being ridiculed by the very thing that created the idea in the first place.

If we cannot know God then there is not a god. There isn't anything in our observable universe (without being facetious and naive in saying so), that is other-worldly or supernatural, that we know of.

Unexplained topics are simply that. One cannot know until one knows. Many illusions of grandeur stem from the insecurity to accept the unknown or unexplained.

These are simply things our species has conjured from imagination and expression. Nothing more to that can be taken seriously. I honestly think that the whole 'god argument' has unfortunately gotten it's own forum of debate simply because of the impotence of allowing it to happen in the first place based on bad judgement.

Now, anyone who argues in disbelief must face a mountain of false-evidence and historical precedence for something that was 'wished' into being.

Just some thoughts to think about.

Last edited by McDevy; 04-04-2011 at 11:18 AM.
McDevy
Soshified
McDevy's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Skag Gully
Posts: 10,941
Subtract from McDevy's ReputationAdd to McDevy's Reputation McDevy is a novice
#116
04-04-2011
Default

Your argument is from incredulity though, because you're asserting qualities and traits to something you do not know.

I'm not arguing against there being a god, I'm arguing that god is irrelevant.
McDevy
Soshified
McDevy's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Skag Gully
Posts: 10,941
Subtract from McDevy's ReputationAdd to McDevy's Reputation McDevy is a novice
#117
04-04-2011
Default

Lol
briansoupy
Level 31
briansoupy's Avatar
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: chicago
Posts: 2,121
Subtract from briansoupy's ReputationAdd to briansoupy's Reputation briansoupy is a novice
Send a message via AIM to briansoupy Send a message via Skype™ to briansoupy
#118
04-04-2011
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plato View Post
If God is irrelevant, then what makes our lives worth living?
This is why this kind of discussion and debate is cumulative process. You say that like you have him cornered somehow but there is actually an entire literary movement and philosophy asserting that nothing "makes life worth living": existentialism.
Oh! Sweet Nuthin'
Quote:
to say god, is to sing god
to sing to god, is to draw near to god
to the nearness that is god
muRda
Godzilla vs. MLK
muRda's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 9,731
Subtract from muRda's ReputationAdd to muRda's Reputation muRda IS OVER 9000 muRda IS OVER 9000 muRda IS OVER 9000 muRda IS OVER 9000 muRda IS OVER 9000 muRda IS OVER 9000 muRda IS OVER 9000 muRda IS OVER 9000 muRda IS OVER 9000 muRda IS OVER 9000 muRda IS OVER 9000
#119
04-05-2011
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plato View Post
We can only assume the facts, and make a best guess, otherwise a person searches for something to believe in.
I was merely just pointing out your own fault of justifying God's actions using a human characteristic (i.e. wanting).

You're even using limited human logic and terminology to describe a being who exists outside our realm of existence then. Every time you designate it of being of the male sex, you fall into this trap. You're right that it is impossible to define or imagine God within the bounds of human logic; there are just two ways of going about being unable to do so: one being the natural, non-spiritual inclination. All religions basically stem from the earliest peoples search for a metaphysical comfort, and then each one branched out to having their own ideas and stories according to their own liking (and mostly based off of those prior). For me, all the major world religions today are no more credible or believable than the Greek myths. Subscribing to one or the other (especially when only indoctrinated into the belief) is just intellectually lazy when you consider how many religions and beliefs you have yet to try to learn about or believe in.

Quote:
Most theists believe something solely by faith without explanation. The proof will come at some point, and everything will be exposed sooner or later.
Will be? The wording you're looking for is could be. Faith doesn't justify making absolute accusations about the future, or the past for that matter. That's where atheism comes in handy because you are inclined to neither until there is actual proof.

Quote:
(I kinda went off on some tangent there, sorry . Just expressing myself)
That's what a debate is for my dude; if you're not sharing, you're not caring (and just being an intellectual dolt).

Last edited by muRda; 04-05-2011 at 07:44 PM.
Flench
Level 22
Flench's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 602
Subtract from Flench's ReputationAdd to Flench's Reputation Flench is a novice
#120
04-22-2011
Default

Well I read most of this, it was pretty good.

So Christianity obviously has problems that reasonable, intelligent people cannot simply accept and embrace. Such as hell, omniscience, and the massive contradictions in the bible. The bible was written by men, which hardcore bible quoters tend to forget. It's not perfect.

If you accept that the bible is not perfect then you could not commit your life to a book that may or may not be true. But if you discover something you already knew deep within you, believe in that idea, just don't wad the bible into one big pile that can never be separated, that's dangerous.

Free will as I've read so far, seems to be irrelevant unless you are trying to use it to prove what was written in the bible doesn't make sense, but that should be evident already.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plato View Post
For me, hypocrisy ruins the credibility of any religion not practicing what they preach. Right off the bat I know what kind of people they are. Opinionated people who don't follow their holy text and still think they are best buds with the deity(ies) they worship, I don't give a flip about.
So I feel like you are describing Christianity exactly but at the same you don't know you're doing so.
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off