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muRda
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#101
03-30-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nv1ncible View Post
  1. Whatever begins to exist, has a cause.
  1. Besides God (or insert other concept of intelligent mind here)?

    Quote:
  2. The universe began to exist (meaning a finite universe, a theory widely accepted throughout the scientific community at this point).
  3. The universe has a cause.
  4. The creation of the universe was the beginning of space and time, therefore the cause of the creation of the universe must be an un-caused, space-less, timeless, and immaterial being.
  5. Something exists so it must have been caused by a being that overcomes the limitations of that something's existence. Easy as cake... if only cake existed.

    Quote:
  6. There are only two things that fit this description. Something that is either abstract, or an intelligent mind.
  7. I would love to know how that logically flows from the argument (not an insult, didn't even watch the video, but would love an explanation of the deductive logic here).

    Quote:
  8. Something that is abstract (such as a number, or color) cannot cause anything, therefore the cause of the universe must be an intelligent mind.
  9. Holy shit! Forget the point I made before, your argument is basically hopeless from there.

    Quote:
  10. This mind must be personal. If it were impersonal, it could not cause a temporal creation such as the universe, but only other eternal creations such as itself. Only a personal mind that is infinite, could cause something finite, because only a personal infinite mind could freely choose to cause something finite without any antecedent, determining conditions.
I don't mean to be insulting, but I would really love for a breakdown of this as well. It makes no sense from how I'm reading it.
davobrosia
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#102
03-31-2011
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Don't treat knowledge as a verb.
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bjorn_248
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#103
03-31-2011
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Response davo?
Errare humanum est

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#104
03-31-2011
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Any sort of "timeline" by which events are bound to happen precludes making decisions of free will, by definition.
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#105
03-31-2011
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So the only time of time line on which free will is plausible is one on which events could change? It feels wrong :/
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#106
03-31-2011
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There is no timeline on which free will is possible. If there is a deterministic timeline, there is no free will.
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Winning
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#107
03-31-2011
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I wonder if God could be bounded by logic...

And what should happen if god were to change his plans for the universe?

I feel as if humanity tends to underestimate the power of infinity. That we sort of expect infinite power and knowledge to mean that God has a constant set of feelings and doesn't ever change.

Hell, we even assume that God has a purpose.
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Last edited by Winning; 03-31-2011 at 10:08 PM.
davobrosia
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#108
03-31-2011
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I feel as if people on the internet tend to underunderstand the concept of infinity.
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FraGTaLiTy
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#109
04-01-2011
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Been watching some Craig debates. He's quite amazing at rhetoric and verbal delivery. Logic... not so much.
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#110
04-01-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davobrosia View Post
There is no timeline on which free will is possible. If there is a deterministic timeline, there is no free will.
So the only time line on which free will is possible is one that allows for past events to change if time travel was hypothetically possible.

Let me set it up like this. Nobody knows what you will choose (no god or omniscient force), you make choices of your own free will. You will, for every choice you make, only make one. You can't make both, or the other one (after the fact). If you choose to do something of your own free will, looking back, you still only made one choice. Now if it was hypothetically possible to slide the "time counter" back and forth, so to speak, like a movie, why were those choices not made of free will? I understand your argument (or maybe I don't) that if a movie exists that plays the story of our lives, and we are just the actors, then we are not making those choices. But the way I see it is, we shape the movie with our free will, not the movie shapes us. This is probably some discussion that is hundreds of years old...tell me what's it's called . If it's not possible to "step outside of time" so to speak, this perspective would hold free will, would it not (basically everything but the time slider part)?
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