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Vrbas
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#331
01-02-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cursed Lemon
You're personifying God, but we're describing a being in and of itself that is totally complete.
Yes, because to me it seems the only way to get through to those who don't even believe He exists. I can't speak from a "Christian" perspective because no one will listen. So i have to "downgrade" who God really is and put Him in a more "reasonable", "logical", and "practicle" form which isn't easy btw.

Last edited by Vrbas; 01-02-2006 at 11:39 PM.
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#332
01-03-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrbas
Why? Why do you want people to see things the way you do? For your own personal gain. There is no doubt. Search yourself and come up with a LEGIT reason that isn't about YOU just getting US to think how YOU do. Getting people to think the way YOU do just for the sake of it or to "make the world better" IS pride. I on the other hand am commanded to convert. The Bible tells us to spread His Word throughout all kingdoms so that ALL might hear the good news. We aren't to convert on our own, we are to plant the seed. God can take care of the rest.
In my opinion, it is in the best interest of mankind to see religion the way I see it. Of course, my self-interest is included. But that's all it is: included. What it's really about is mankind bettering itself; that is my foremost concern. The conclusion I've come to is for that to happen, religion needs to be replaced with agnosticism. But that conclusion isn't absolute. It's possible that it can change. Do you think I'm lying? Why is it prideful to want the world to be a better place? I'm curious, what exactly do you think I stand to gain from convincing people to drop religion and flock to agnosticism?

MarkedAchilles is right. "Converting" isn't the best word. It's better to say that I'm challenging you, making you think about your beliefs in depth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrbas
Jesus was the Son of God. That's what Christians believe. You know the story of Jesus and how He was sent by God to die on the Cross so that we may inherit eternal life. There is no need to retell the story. Muslims believe He was merely a prophet. Not just any but a prophet none the less.
Read this part of my last post again. Read it carefully.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Colostomizer
I want to know exactly why faith is sufficient for justifying your beliefs but not Muslims'. Don't tell me how Christianity and Islam are different and how ridiculous the Koran is, because Muslims would say the same thing about you. Tell me why your faith is better than theirs.
Now, read it again, and then read it one more time. I want to make sure you get it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrbas
Yes, because to me it seems the only way to get through to those who don't even believe He exists. I can't speak from a "Christian" perspective because no one will listen. So i have to "downgrade" who God really is and put Him in a more "reasonable", "logical", and "practicle" form which isn't easy btw.
Please, don't "downgrade" it. I don't like sugarcoating. Describe it from a Christian point of view. My curiosity is piqued.

Last edited by The Colostomizer; 01-03-2006 at 01:58 AM.
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#333
01-03-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Colostomizer
MarkedAchilles is right. "Converting" isn't the best word. It's better to say that I'm challenging you, making you think about your beliefs in depth.

Read this part of my last post again. Read it carefully.
Now, read it again, and then read it one more time. I want to make sure you get it.

Please, don't "downgrade" it. I don't like sugarcoating. Describe it from a Christian point of view. My curiosity is piqued.
You're right, converting isn't the right word to use. But the idea that you want me to believe what you believe is conversion is it not? I'm not sure if that's what you want me to do but IMO abandoning my beliefs because someone has convinced me to believe theirs sure as heck is related to "converting" in a sense.

I was referring to a different statement you made. If you want the direct quote please refer to your post on page 33, the 4th post from the last.

Well if sugarcoating isn't a way to get a point across to you and being compeletely straightforward isn't either, what's left? With ever statement i make you merely ask another question. It's a neverending cycle of you questioning and me answering. I've asked plenty of questions yet you always manage to avoid answering them with answers. Instead you throw another question at it.

Look i've given you answer after answer about what i believe and what my beliefs hold as truths. Since you don't believe what i believe no answer i give you will suffice. It has to yet. So can i ask why you are still asking?

Last edited by Vrbas; 01-03-2006 at 03:05 AM.
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#334
01-03-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hXc hiPPo
All your super Christian bullshit is getting annoying, all this stupid shit about sinning, sinning is having emotions. The guy that made birth control said this, " Have sex for pleasure; reproduction for reproduction."
AMEN PREACH.
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#335
01-03-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrbas
You're right, converting isn't the right word to use. But the idea that you want me to believe what you believe is conversion is it not? I'm not sure if that's what you want me to do but IMO abandoning my beliefs because someone has convinced me to believe theirs sure as heck is related to "converting" in a sense.
No one can ever really be converted. All I can do is give you new information and hope you'll change your mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrbas
I was referring to a different statement you made. If you want the direct quote please refer to your post on page 33, the 4th post from the last.
Don't worry about that post. I figured out a much better way to ask the same question, and I'd love to see an answer. I'll say it one more time, because this is the heart of the argument in my mind.

I want to know exactly why faith is sufficient for justifying your beliefs but not Muslims'. Don't tell me how Christianity and Islam are different and how ridiculous the Koran is, because Muslims would say the same thing about you. Tell me why your faith is better than theirs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrbas
Well if sugarcoating isn't a way to get a point across to you and being compeletely straightforward isn't either, what's left? With ever statement i make you merely ask another question. It's a neverending cycle of you questioning and me answering. I've asked plenty of questions yet you always manage to avoid answering them with answers. Instead you throw another question at it.
Sugarcoating will never get us anywhere. I'd just like to see you being completely straightforward. Try it out. And please, tell me exactly which questions you've ever asked me that I avoided answering. (I can't remember doing anything but answering everything you threw at me, whereas about half of my questions for you get answered.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrbas
Look i've given you answer after answer about what i believe and what my beliefs hold as truths. Since you don't believe what i believe no answer i give you will suffice. It has to yet. So can i ask why you are still asking?
You seem like a good guy, Vrbas. So, I'd rather you had the ability to change your views based on new information; that seems to be a very important aspect of living a good life. As I see it now, your mind is completely closed when it comes to religious matters. I'd rather everyone's beliefs were justified, because beliefs can potentially limit the rights of others, and I'm far from convinced that your beliefs are justified. I think it's possible that one day, you'll be able to change your views. That's what I'm striving for. I don't want to give up. I hate leaving debates unfinished.
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#336
01-03-2006
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Buddhism condones NO sexual activity at all, not even after marriage, they want you to remain celibate forever that's pretty hard, you aren't even supposed to masturbate.



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#337
01-03-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hXc hiPPo
Buddhism condones NO sexual activity at all, not even after marriage, they want you to remain celibate forever that's pretty hard, you aren't even supposed to masturbate.
Well, good luck with that. You'll be missing out on a lot of good stuff.
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#338
01-03-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Colostomizer
No one can ever really be converted. All I can do is give you new information and hope you'll change your mind.

Don't worry about that post. I figured out a much better way to ask the same question, and I'd love to see an answer. I'll say it one more time, because this is the heart of the argument in my mind.

I want to know exactly why faith is sufficient for justifying your beliefs but not Muslims'. Don't tell me how Christianity and Islam are different and how ridiculous the Koran is, because Muslims would say the same thing about you. Tell me why your faith is better than theirs.

Sugarcoating will never get us anywhere. I'd just like to see you being completely straightforward. Try it out. And please, tell me exactly which questions you've ever asked me that I avoided answering. (I can't remember doing anything but answering everything you threw at me, whereas about half of my questions for you get answered.)

You seem like a good guy, Vrbas. So, I'd rather you had the ability to change your views based on new information; that seems to be a very important aspect of living a good life. As I see it now, your mind is completely closed when it comes to religious matters. I'd rather everyone's beliefs were justified, because beliefs can potentially limit the rights of others, and I'm far from convinced that your beliefs are justified. I think it's possible that one day, you'll be able to change your views. That's what I'm striving for. I don't want to give up. I hate leaving debates unfinished.
The reason why I believe that my faith is better than theirs is because i believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, sent from Heaven to sacrifice His life so that we might have it. The Holy Word tells me this and i believe it to be true. I don't believe Jesus was just a great prophet. I'm not saying Muslims are stupid and retarded for believing what they do. Actually, they hold many of the same beliefs I do about the Christian faith, save Jesus, the Son of God part. That's the difference between Christians and Muslims. That's the blunt way to put it.

About the questions going unanswered, i jumped to conclusions. You have answered many of my questions. It's just that I PERSONALY don't see those answers to be sufficient. Ironic huh? I just feel like when i'm finally done explaining something as much as i can you ask another question. And i know this is a debate forum and questions are welcome, it's just i'm pretty new at this whole "defending my beliefs" thing. Not used to all the questions. I'm sorry if i jumped the gun and offended you.

You can call me closeminded when it comes to my faith. *Sigh*, i'm trying to put myself in your shoes. Trying to convince someone of something and they won't even listen. I can tell you are frustrated to an extent. But i believe what i believe and i KNOW it's my duty to not necessarily make others believe what i feel is the Truth, but i am commanded by God to expand His Kingdom and spread the Good News to all nations. I am merely obeying the God that i serve. I admit i go a bit overboard and try and do the "expanding" all by myself but i later catch myself realizing that God is infinitely more powerful than i am and He can take care of the seeds that i plant.

That's the hard part. Actually, that's the impossible part. No one can prove or disprove the existance of God. Nor can they prove/disprove that Christianity is the TRUTH. No one can prove/disprove anything. At least not to the extent that I THINK you are getting at. That is where faith comes in. I realize that you view Christianity is based souly on faith but it's not (that's how you come across to me). Ephesians 2:8 says, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast." So BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH we are saved. There is one thing we have to remember as Christians and that's that NOTHING we can do saves us. I can honestly say this has confused me a bit in the past because God asks US to believe. Doesn't that make US play some sort of role in this? I have come to better understandings since then. We must realize that only BY God's Grace can we even have the chance to inherit eternal life. His Grace superbounds. That is what the Christian faith is all about.... Grace.

Last edited by Vrbas; 01-03-2006 at 11:33 AM.
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#339
01-03-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrbas
The reason why I believe that my faith is better than theirs is because i believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, sent from Heaven to sacrifice His life so that we might have it. The Holy Word tells me this and i believe it to be true. I don't believe Jesus was just a great prophet. I'm not saying Muslims are stupid and retarded for believing what they do. Actually, they hold many of the same beliefs I do about the Christian faith, save Jesus, the Son of God part. That's the difference between Christians and Muslims. That's the blunt way to put it.
Not good enough. Muslims would say that their faith is better because they believe that Jesus wasn't the son of God. The Koran tells them this, and they believe it to be true. They believe Jesus was a great prophet. They might not say that you're stupid and retarded for believing what you do, and they might consider many of the aspects of their faith similar to yours, but they'd still say you're wrong and they're right. I don't want the difference between Christians and Muslims. I want to know which one I should choose, and I haven't seen a good reason one way or the other yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrbas
About the questions going unanswered, i jumped to conclusions. You have answered many of my questions. It's just that I PERSONALY don't see those answers to be sufficient. Ironic huh?
Yes, yes it is. But it's not unexpected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrbas
I just feel like when i'm finally done explaining something as much as i can you ask another question. And i know this is a debate forum and questions are welcome, it's just i'm pretty new at this whole "defending my beliefs" thing. Not used to all the questions. I'm sorry if i jumped the gun and offended you.
Apology accepted. And don't worry; there isn't much anyone can say on an internet forum that will offend me. I'm not asking all these questions to offend you, I'm doing it to challenge your beliefs and to get you to rethink your convictions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrbas
You can call me closeminded when it comes to my faith. *Sigh*, i'm trying to put myself in your shoes. Trying to convince someone of something and they won't even listen. I can tell you are frustrated to an extent.
You've got to realize that no matter how right something seems, you should never be close minded.

I am frustrated to an extent, but it doesn't extend very far. If it was at all unbearable, I would have given up a long time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vrbas
That's the hard part. Actually, that's the impossible part. No one can prove or disprove the existance of God. Nor can they prove/disprove that Christianity is the TRUTH. No one can prove/disprove anything. At least not to the extent that I THINK you are getting at. That is where faith comes in. I realize that you view Christianity is based souly on faith but it's not (that's how you come across to me). Ephesians 2:8 says, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast." So BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH we are saved. There is one thing we have to remember as Christians and that's that NOTHING we can do saves us. I can honestly say this has confused me a bit in the past because God asks US to believe. Doesn't that make US play some sort of role in this? I have come to better understandings since then. We must realize that only BY God's Grace can we even have the chance to inherit eternal life. His Grace superbounds. That is what the Christian faith is all about.... Grace.
There's a misunderstanding here. You're right, as a Christian, you're saved not because your worthy (you can't ever be worthy by your definition), but because of God's grace. But that's not what I'm talking about. When I say that Christianity is justified solely through faith, I'm talking about something completely different than grace. What I mean is that there's no proof or even evidence to back up Christianity's claims. Faith versus works for getting into Heaven is a different subject.
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#340
01-03-2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Colostomizer
Not good enough. Muslims would say that their faith is better because they believe that Jesus wasn't the son of God. The Koran tells them this, and they believe it to be true. They believe Jesus was a great prophet. They might not say that you're stupid and retarded for believing what you do, and they might consider many of the aspects of their faith similar to yours, but they'd still say you're wrong and they're right. I don't want the difference between Christians and Muslims. I want to know which one I should choose, and I haven't seen a good reason one way or the other yet.
Well then i guess it is just relative to the person. If you want me to prove the Muslim faith wrong, i'm not going to, nor do i know how. It's not up to me to tell you what to choose. This isn't my choice to make for you. Only you can make it. I can only present you with the information i believe to be true and you can either take it into consideration or you don't. Just know that according to my beliefs, God had a Son and that Son was His only Son. God loved us SOO much that He sacrificed His ONLY Son to die for us. That is some insane love right there.

Now from the Muslim point of view. Jesus was a great Prophet, yet He wasn't the Son of God. So when Jesus was killed upon the Cross, what then? According to the Muslim faith he was merely sentanced to death. Nothing more. He didn't want to die on the cross, he was put there for His "crimes". Did He still take on all the sins of the world to give us a chance for eternal life? How was Jesus connected to God if they weren't related? If you believe that according to the Christian faith no one is worthy of glorification then you'd know that without Jesus dying FOR OUR SINS we would have no chance of entering heaven. I know you don't believe what i as a Christian do but it's the idea that counts.

I'm not trying to bash the Muslim faith i'm just trying to point out the difference and explain it a little. Muslims believe alot of what i do about Christianity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Colostomizer
You've got to realize that no matter how right something seems, you should never be close minded.

I am not about to abandon my faith just because people come along and tell me that there isn't enough proof to believe what i believe. It's gonna take a heck of alot more than that. I can honestly say that if one belief was proven to a great extent to be true and it happened not to be mine, i would consider. But i'm a devote Christian who loves the Lord Jesus Christ and God. I am not going to abandon them because they haven't abandoned me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Colostomizer
What I mean is that there's no proof or even evidence to back up Christianity's claims.
Nor is there for any other belief.
 

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