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Yahweh
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#1
09-08-2009
Default Very good thought

This is a quote from HIH that i found really struck home with a lot of my beliefs:

Quote:
Originally Posted by joey11223 View Post
One thing I don't get is why Hell can exist and God can be called all-loving. God's supposed to be "outside of time"(what ever that means...), omnipotent and omniscient. So he already knows what's going to happen to me tomorrow. I might get hit by a bus, I might find £10 on the street, point is God already knows. God also knows everything about me, I've been told God knows you better then you know yourself. So lets take Joe, the Atheist. Even when Joe was born God knew that even though Joe went to a public school with a large racial and religious mix and was exposed to Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Sikhism etc(although more Christianity in school) he'd not believe in them. He knows Joe thinks the Bible is contradictory and was written by mankind, he knows Joe thinks a God as described in most religions would not actually have emotions as we do as jealousy and vanity are weaknesses. God Knows Joe's a pretty nice guy, he's never beat anyone up, he's stopped in the street before to help people. But even still God has made a eternally negative afterlife for people like Joe and the majority of the human race(according to the NT). What I want to know is why did he do this.

Let's use a human example. Yeah I know God's too complex for us to understand the way he thinks(..cop-out, like "outside of time", wtf is that?) but lowly Joe will try anyway.

Ok so Joe has two kids via artificial insemination. So some women has twins because of me but they never get to meet their dad. She tells them about my existence and how I'm a really good guy, although they don't get to see photos of me or actual letters from me by hand. They get testimonials from some of my mates about how great I am but that's it. She tells them they should say thanks to me every day for existing and love me above all else, even her and how they have to behave really well for their whole lives which I commanded. Now as they grow up one of the kids doubts my greatness. After all I never give alimony, I never see him, for all he knows I've been dead the whole time. The other kid is obsessed with me, he's always talking about stories he's been told of how I saved a bus full of people and how I'm the greatest guy alive. As they get older the kid who loves me turns into a pretty nasty piece of work, he gets involved in crimes and drugs and such, but still he genuinely loves me. The other kid basically doesn't care about me any more, he never thinks about me, I don't exist as far as he's concerned and the stuff he's been told about me is probably all lies. He's a straight A student, involved in loads of charity work, he even donated bone marrow as he was a match to one of his friends who got cancer and needed a transplant.

So when their both adults I finally meet them in person. The kid who didn't believe in me any more is pretty shocked I've turned up and I am actually the great successful guy their mum told them about. The other kid is in jail for assaulting a women and stealing her purse to buy drugs, but obviously he loves me a lot.

So I have a choice now. Their mum has told me about how the successful kid always said bad things about me and how he didn't love me at all. This is pretty hurtful to me but I am a very understanding guy and so I realise how me not being there in person would have made him pretty angry. So I can either sit him down and talk about it and let him apologise for not taking me seriously and now get to know each other. Or I could say "forget you, you didn't love me when you were growing up, I never want to see you again! In fact I'm going to lock you up in my underground basement for the rest of your life. I might let people torture or I might just leave you in the dark, not sure but one of those! I'm not forgiving you ever, you had to your chance to love me growing up!"

Replace growing up with living your whole life and the basement represents hell. Reason I said maybe torture maybe not is some Christians(more in Americ and especially the Southern States) take the lake of fire and demons literally where as some think it's an empty place without God or any positive emotions.

So I'm going to choose to kid to know my son. As I said I'm a pretty loving and understanding guy and he's lived a good life apart from not really believing in me.

Now God is infinitely more loving and especially infinitely more understanding then me. If he doesn't choose the first choice of sitting down with me after death and letting my repent and get to know him then I say I am more moral then him, it's that simple.

Anyone can comment on this essay of a post if they want.

Anyone?

Also, he brought up omnipotence and omniscience. So here's another good thought: If God knows everything, then he knew satan would betray him. So why would God create satan? The only sensible conclusion I can find, is that Satan was created to look the part of the bad guy, that way God can look like a good guy. Thoughts?

kapowftw 2:32 pm
(2:32:45 PM): you should have said you could find jesus in her ass
Deadly Buni
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#2
09-08-2009
Default

Judaism existed for some time before the story of Satan was created.



dano
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#3
09-08-2009
Default

I'm a Christian, and these are the following things i find wrong w/ this essay of a post...

Quote:
One thing I don't get is why Hell can exist and God can be called all-loving.
a hellfire doesn't exist. God is all-loving, therefore a hellfire would go against himself.

Quote:
God's supposed to be "outside of time"(what ever that means...), omnipotent and omniscient. So he already knows what's going to happen to me tomorrow. I might get hit by a bus, I might find £10 on the street, point is God already knows.
true, God is omniscient, but don't let that detract you from Gods ability to control his omniscience. I can compare this to somebody who is professional at singing and is very talented. would this person be singing 24/7? of course not. the singer doesn't sing all of the time, just when he/she desires to and feels the need to do so.

Quote:
But even still God has made a eternally negative afterlife for people like Joe and the majority of the human race(according to the NT). What I want to know is why did he do this.
i previously stated that a place of fiery torment is not among my beliefs as a christian, nor should it be a belief of any christian, since it is not a biblical teaching.

...that's all i have to say about that
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#4
09-08-2009
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by danoSNakE==[:]~ View Post
true, God is omniscient, but don't let that detract you from Gods ability to control his omniscience. I can compare this to somebody who is professional at singing and is very talented. would this person be singing 24/7? of course not. the singer doesn't sing all of the time, just when he/she desires to and feels the need to do so.
Singing is active. Knowing is passive.
Spoiler!
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#5
09-08-2009
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by danoSNakE==[:]~ View Post
a hellfire doesn't exist. God is all-loving, therefore a hellfire would go against himself.
Are you calling god a liar?




Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthew 13:50
furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark 9:48
where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revelation 14:10
he will be tormented with fire and brimstone
Quote:
i previously stated that a place of fiery torment is not among my beliefs as a christian, nor should it be a belief of any christian, since it is not a biblical teaching.
You don't read the Bible much, do you? Consult the following website for the appropriate passages. I'd suggest opening your Bible and reading the chapter in it's entirety so you can confirm that you're wrong.
The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion.
-Thomas Paine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowl View Post
. . .
Chimpanzee (our closest living relative) is a well known homosexual animal.. . .
zyphex
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#6
09-08-2009
Default

Where does the notion come from that the good person who does not believe in God will be sent to Hell? If it is from the Bible, you cannot presume it to be fact, unless you are a fundamentalist rather than a contextualist.
GT: Zyphex
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#7
09-08-2009
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TooMuchButtHair View Post
Are you calling god a liar?


You don't read the Bible much, do you? Consult the following website for the appropriate passages. I'd suggest opening your Bible and reading the chapter in it's entirety so you can confirm that you're wrong.
Your argument only works from a fundamentalists point of view where the Bible is viewed as The Word of God, rather than the word of God in the words of human beings. I encourage you to consult Saint Mary's Press College Study Bible and read the introductions to learn about the Bible, rather than quoting specific verses and acting as if they are attempting to display FACT. The Bible is not a history book, nor is it there to tell us facts. The Bible is made up of myths, such as the story of Creation. There are even 2 creation stories in the Bible, and one even tells that God created plants before He created the sun, which would be nonsense! It is also made up of etiologies, such as the etiology of language with the tale of the tower of Babel.

Catholicism regards the Bible as Inerrant, that is, without error in terms of teaching the way to salvation, not in displaying FACTS.

Simply reading the Bible and reciting excerpts is not Biblical Criticism. Knowing what the Bible is and isn't is the key.
GT: Zyphex

Last edited by zyphex; 09-08-2009 at 02:14 PM.
Yahweh
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#8
09-08-2009
Default

My real problem isn't with what he had to say, it's with what I did. The guy pretty much summed up my opinion, (although I do agree there are parts of it that are somewhat nonsensical or misinformed) but that doesn't mean it's what my issue here is.

What bothers me is that the story of Satan, if at all true, means that God is a manipulator. He pinned Satan as the bad guy, so he could shine on as the good guy. If he knew what was going to happen, why let Satan exist? God doesn't need to prove he's better. Or at least, if he's the all-knowing master of the universe, he shouldn't care to look like it.

@ Danosnake and zyphex,
zyphex, fundamentalism or not, the bible represents hell as a fiery pit of torture. danosnake, it's pretty much hand in hand with the teaching of religion that hell is bad. the both of you, for the sake of this argument, lets just pretend hell's a fiery place. the metaphor will help us comprehend the whole situation better.

my point still is left unanswered. why would God let a decent person, who refuted the possibility of a God (simply because god was never there) be sent to an eternity of punishment? Why should he choose the asshole that believed in God, but was a terrible person? Why should religion be the deciding factor of passage to heaven of hell? Why is it even a deciding factor? Religion should be a way to find faith, and not the only avenue to salvation. If there is a God that would banish a person for not believing in him, then that is no God I choose to worship.

kapowftw 2:32 pm
(2:32:45 PM): you should have said you could find jesus in her ass
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#9
09-08-2009
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahweh View Post

@ Danosnake and zyphex,
zyphex, fundamentalism or not, the bible represents hell as a fiery pit of torture. danosnake, it's pretty much hand in hand with the teaching of religion that hell is bad. the both of you, for the sake of this argument, lets just pretend hell's a fiery place. the metaphor will help us comprehend the whole situation better.

my point still is left unanswered. why would God let a decent person, who refuted the possibility of a God (simply because god was never there) be sent to an eternity of punishment? Why should he choose the asshole that believed in God, but was a terrible person? Why should religion be the deciding factor of passage to heaven of hell? Why is it even a deciding factor? Religion should be a way to find faith, and not the only avenue to salvation. If there is a God that would banish a person for not believing in him, then that is no God I choose to worship.
Once again, where do you pull this notion of "If you are a great person and don't believe in God, you will go to Hell"? The point of the Bible is to inspire the reader to live a "Christlike" life, not just to acknowledge God and then ignore the point of the teachings. Once again, I am just guessing that you got this from some reading in the Bible, but I cannot be sure until you give me an answer of the source of your notion. I do not admit to be a master of Biblical verse, but I am a college student that just had to do a reading assignment for his "Exploring Religious Meaning" course XD.
GT: Zyphex

Last edited by zyphex; 09-08-2009 at 02:52 PM.
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#10
09-08-2009
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by zyphex View Post
Your argument only works from a fundamentalists point of view where the Bible is viewed as The Word of God, rather than the word of God in the words of human beings. I encourage you to consult Saint Mary's Press College Study Bible and read the introductions to learn about the Bible, rather than quoting specific verses and acting as if they are attempting to display FACT. The Bible is not a history book, nor is it there to tell us facts. The Bible is made up of myths, such as the story of Creation. There are even 2 creation stories in the Bible, and one even tells that God created plants before He created the sun, which would be nonsense! It is also made up of etiologies, such as the etiology of language with the tale of the tower of Babel.

Catholicism regards the Bible as Inerrant, that is, without error in terms of teaching the way to salvation, not in displaying FACTS.

Simply reading the Bible and reciting excerpts is not Biblical Criticism. Knowing what the Bible is and isn't is the key.
Theologically, that perspective throws the legitimacy of the Bible is thrown out the window.
The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion.
-Thomas Paine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prowl View Post
. . .
Chimpanzee (our closest living relative) is a well known homosexual animal.. . .
 

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