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davobrosia
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#11
09-10-2007
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If a perfectly omniscient being (i.e., it knows everything and can't be wrong) knows our actions before they happen, then it's necessitated that our actions follow its foreknowledge.
We may not know what the being foreknows, so from our reference point, our actions appear to be of our own will, but the perfectly omniscient being already knows them and thus we cannot stray from that knowledge.
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#12
09-10-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davobrosia View Post
If a perfectly omniscient being (i.e., it knows everything and can't be wrong) knows our actions before they happen, then it's necessitated that our actions follow its foreknowledge.
But does that necessarily mean our decisions are decided by said being? Just because he/it knows it's going to happen, means he decided for it to happen? That seems...logically flawed to me. I know it's not, sorta.

Quote:
We may not know what the being foreknows, so from our reference point, our actions appear to be of our own will, but the perfectly omniscient being already knows them and thus we cannot stray from that knowledge.
For about ten minutes I sat still trying to wrap my brain around it. Every possible refutation I tried to come up with was owned by that quote, thus, it get's it's own little quote bubble, and I bow before it, because it's awesomely awesome.
The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion.
-Thomas Paine

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. . .
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#13
09-10-2007
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Originally Posted by BiShoP View Post
I assume the creator of the universe to be the Judeo-Christian God who is solely concerned with human beings on this earth. It's not prejudicial in any sense, just the truth in which the Bible speaks.
You make your assertions without evidence so I can dismiss them without evidence. Thanks for proving my point. All you can do now is beg the question, "what makes the Bible true then?" Go to the common fallacies thread that NiceGuy posted. You will see that you deflate logic when you inevitably tell me the Bible is true because God wrote it and you know God wrote it because the Bible says so. That explains nothing except that you have no substantial reasons to believe anything you have told me thus far except that you have convinced yourself regardless.


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#14
09-10-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TooMuchButtHair View Post
But does that necessarily mean our decisions are decided by said being? Just because he/it knows it's going to happen, means he decided for it to happen? That seems...logically flawed to me. I know it's not, sorta.

For about ten minutes I sat still trying to wrap my brain around it. Every possible refutation I tried to come up with was owned by that quote, thus, it get's it's own little quote bubble, and I bow before it, because it's awesomely awesome.
Yeah, it's a doozie. The argument doesn't state that the omniscient being causes foreknown actions, but the mere fact that such knowledge exists necessitates them.

If a being that knows all events (past, present, and future) with 100% accuracy and can never be wrong, then nothing can happen that it doesn't already know will happen, and thus we've no say in the matter. So long as this knowledge remains unknown to us, we still keep (for all intents and purposes) at least the illusion of free will. But truly, it would have to be like Omniscient Being X already knows it will.
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#15
09-10-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davobrosia View Post
Yeah, it's a doozie. The argument doesn't state that the omniscient being causes foreknown actions, but the mere fact that such knowledge exists necessitates them.

If a being that knows all events (past, present, and future) with 100% accuracy and can never be wrong, then nothing can happen that it doesn't already know will happen, and thus we've no say in the matter. So long as this knowledge remains unknown to us, we still keep (for all intents and purposes) at least the illusion of free will. But truly, it would have to be like Omniscient Being X already knows it will.
This sounds like it's straight out of God's Debris (which was a FANTASTIC read). I have no choice but to defer to logic, and agree with you.
The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion.
-Thomas Paine

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Originally Posted by Prowl View Post
. . .
Chimpanzee (our closest living relative) is a well known homosexual animal.. . .
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#16
09-10-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TooMuchButtHair View Post
This sounds like it's straight out of God's Debris (which was a FANTASTIC read). I have no choice but to defer to logic, and agree with you.
It's not from that (it's scoured from various philosophy texts and professors), but I agree, God's Debris is phenomenal. Definitely a must-read.
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#17
09-10-2007
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GOD DAMNIT.

I wanted to bring up God's Debris and the illusion of free will.

I'm slow today.

I lended the book to a friend earlier today.

I also read all of Anthem by Ayn Rand; we were discussing egoism and altruism in my ethics class and had a very hard time maintaining respect for Ayn Rand following her philosophy defending egoism. She should stick to novels, philosophy's not really her game.

However, after reading Anthem, I have a lot more sympathy for her perspective defending egoism. However, it only works in her case, being that she grew up in a communistic society, and to anyone who's read Anthem, it presents a rather powerful point as to why egoism works over altruism; but again, only in the satirical story in which she wrote.
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#18
09-10-2007
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I can't remember who began the train of thought during Renaissance Europe (I will update as soon as I find my fucking text book), but the principle was simply this:

God knows the how you begin, and how you end. Although the outcome will always be what God intended, what you do during your lifetime reflects what your outcome will be (i.e. making it into heaven or not). You do not know the outcome of your life, therefore your choices from your standpoint are of your own free will, and DO dictate your outcome.

This is comparible to God fastforwarding a tape. He sees the begining, doesn't care about the middle, and knows the ending ahead of time.

Logically, you could just say that since God is an omnipotent figure, he already knows your actions and therefore you did not choose them, but that was the ideology of the day.

Of course, you could go the athiest route.

There is no God, and I do whatever the fuck I want and it's my fucking choice what I do.

Fuck yeah.
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#19
09-10-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Death789 View Post
I can't remember who began the train of thought during Renaissance Europe (I will update as soon as I find my f.cking text book), but the principle was simply this:

God knows the how you begin, and how you end. Although the outcome will always be what God intended, what you do during your lifetime reflects what your outcome will be (i.e. making it into heaven or not). You do not know the outcome of your life, therefore your choices from your standpoint are of your own free will, and DO dictate your outcome.

This is comparible to God fastforwarding a tape. He sees the begining, doesn't care about the middle, and knows the ending ahead of time.

Logically, you could just say that since God is an omnipotent figure, he already knows your actions and therefore you did not choose them, but that was the ideology of the day.

Of course, you could go the athiest route.

There is no God, and I do whatever the f.ck I want and it's my f.cking choice what I do.

f.ck yeah.
We don't know what Perfectly Omniscient Being X foreknows, but that the knowledge exists negates any semblance of true freedom. To us, we'd have free will, but that doesn't mean we actually do, only that it feels that way.
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#20
09-10-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davobrosia View Post
To us, we'd have free will, but that doesn't mean we actually do, only that it feels that way.
As I was saying, that ideology was according to a specific influencial Renaissance author who I still can not put my finger on.

I believe his last name begins with a V?

Any who, thats what I was hitting at. Although it may appear free will existed to those subject to it, it is only an illusion. Pre-19th century religious ideals were quite impervious to logic.





Thank God my actions aren't pre-determined.









Pun.
 

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