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#51
10-30-2006
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Originally Posted by Cresticles View Post
Unless you went through actually praying and accepting Jesus, you were never a Christian. Thats what I see alot. People say, "My parents took me to church and I sang and stuff. But then I stopped being a Chrisitan" Well obviously that person wasn't living anything right. If you accepted Jesus, then you are a christian, forever. But, the better you live: giving to charity, helping people, stuff like that. Then you'll be good off in heaven. Atleast thats the way the Bible Describes the proposed life of a Chrisitan.


And, too Cursed. Cancer is due to the crappy diets that people have had over the past 50-100 years. If a person doesn't eat their "veggies" their leg "usually" doesn't fall off as they are jogging. Health has been going downhill for the past century. And I don't think it's going to be coming back up anytime soon.
Dude, it's not the Mafia, it's not like you can't un-accept Jesus. If you all of a sudden stop believing that he was the son of God, then it'd be hard to continue claiming you've accepted him as your savior because he would be unable to perform such a function seeing as how you would now view him as just a regular guy.


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#52
10-30-2006
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Originally Posted by Rebal771 View Post
That may not be your belief...but I think that humans are full of more evil than they even recognize, and I honestly think that we've pushed God so far out of the equation...that he almost SHOULDN'T interfere...just to teach us a lesson.
If "it's" teaching us a lesson by not interfering, then who is that lesson going to be taught too once we're all dead?
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#53
10-30-2006
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Originally Posted by Captain 67 View Post
If "it's" teaching us a lesson by not interfering, then who is that lesson going to be taught too once we're all dead?
Note that Rebal said "he ALMOST souldn't interfere". That's the thing though; despite all of our sins, He still intervenes, because of His love for us.
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#54
10-30-2006
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OF COURSE it's nitpicking...because you guys want results...but you only want them in specific ways (You try and limit the debate...so I have to nitpick to show you that you CAN'T limit the debate....it's broader than you're trying to discuss...and that's not fair to argue)....and God doesn't work that way, man. Never has. Don't know if he ever will.

The point is...if Colostomizer is allowed to limit the debate to "why doesn't God answer amputees" when he's only talking about amputees that haven't been answered......then the answer is "The answer is coming."

Confused yet?

Do you see the erroneous thinking? We CAN'T LIMIT this to whether or not a limb has been fully restored...because humans don't fully restore limbs...so we're not even talking about the right species. We're humans.

We don't regenerate...we replace. We don't regenerate new organs that have to be "cut out" of a cancer patient either............there IS NO DIFFERENCE here. You're trying to compare different diseases, and it just doesn't work....ESPECIALLY when the point you're trying to make doesn't have anything to do with the diseases...you just want to challenge a belief.
What are you saying? That just because nature dictated that humans don't regenerate lost limbs, that prayer suddenly loses its effect? What difference does that make? God decides to not answer the prayers of someone who is wishing for something "abnormal"? You can't possibly make that call and stand behind it.

And what kind of logic is it that amputee's prayers "have yet to be answered" but cancer patients' prayers have ALREADY been answered? Cancer patients wish for no cancer, they get no cancer. Amputees SPECIFICALLY wish for their limb to be restored, and they don't get it. You're just making things up now.

Quote:
I'm not saying ANYONE will get their prayers answered in the way that that want....but sometimes...it happens. Yeah...sometimes cancer patients get "cured" without explination. Sometimes...amputees get a free leg donated to them.

You say that a limb has never been restored...but I know for a fact that they have been reattached...so why doesn't that count?

Cancer patients who have malignant parts cut out of their bodies don't regenerate THOSE body parts....what makes you think an amputee who had a gangrene infection in his left arm would be any different? The cancer patient can get a donated organ....or the amputee can get an artifical arm..........I'm not seeing the problem here...other than you're STILL trying to compare two completely different diseases.

I don't know who you think you are to determine which "answer" is more "direct"...other than you want to see a fully restored limb...but technically...both are answers. You just want a DIFFERENT answer...and I can't really help you with that.
*shrugs*

Take it up with him. *points up*

BTW...that seems correct to me, because this is Earth........and life is not about fairness, although a common misconception.
Amputees do not get "free legs". Either you get a prosthetic or you're f*cked. Either way, it's sh*tty. And reattached limbs don't count because it was PEOPLE who did that. Not God. And if you want to go into that whole "no free will/God is the universe" thing, we can do that, but later.

Now YOU'RE limiting the debate. I don't recall a stipulation in the Bible that your prayers for health have to be within human medical boundaries or fall under the laws of evolution for your species.

Rebal, I can't talk with God. And I'm inclined to believe that none of us can. So it comes down to what YOU think God is doing, and me saying that we don't know.

Quote:
Right. I understand that. I repeatedly point out how I understand that point...because I understand where you're coming from. It's a sh*tty situation...and we don't really have a DEFINATE answer as to why we can't regenerate our body parts.

But that doesn't mean that we can't make due...as he's helped us to do so far. He's helped us with the knowledge of how to recreate an artificial limb...and a lot of them are quite advanced, now-a-days...and even provided outlets in which other people could RECEIVE those parts free of charge.

BTW...I'm not calling you a terrorist for questioning the truth.....I'm telling you to go to the source if you've got a question.

If you don't have a question...what is your point?

Your point is that God does not exist...because amputees do not get their prayers answered....and to THAT....I call bullsh*t, because they get answers.

Just not the ones you want...and I'm sorry it doesn't work out the way that YOU want it to...but that's life.
The ENTIRE point of this debate is questioning why cancer patients actually get what they ask for and amputees have to just settle for something else, because that's completely illogical. That is the entire question, nothing more and nothing less.

Quote:
No...you just think it's that way...because you're not a doctor...and you're not a professional on this subject. Ladies and gentlemen...we call this ignorance.

You think cancer patients get cured without loss, because this is a "direct" answer from God.

You think that amputees lose their limb, and never get a "yes"....or get "indirect" answers from God...through artificial recreation.

The fact of the matter is...cancer patients DO lose organs, sometimes...JUST LIKE amputees! Sometimes...cancer patients get cured. Sometimes...amputees get artificial limbs...or the ones that were cut off...get reattached. <-Those are answered prayers, guys. Whether you want to accept that or not...they are.
And some cancer patients DON'T lose their organs. Some cancer patients get out without a hitch. You're nitpicking again, the frequency of full cancer survivors is totally irrelevant.

Quote:
Well...since God is defined as something that is beyond our comprehension...I don't understand how you can LIMIT the debate to such a small sector of the subject matter....when there's a much broader range of situations and possibilities that should be encompassed when saying the words "amputee".

Actually...I think I broadened the spectrum of discussion, while essentially, we're talking about a significantly smaller group of people with your guys' predetermined lines of what is an "answer"/what is not...and what an "amputee" is/what it isn't.

How can you limit it solely to people who haven't gotten their answers yet...or to the ones that get told "no"? Cause there are people who've gotten yeses...but you guys don't want to acknoledge those.

How am I killing the debate?
Because we're taking a group of people who have never, EVER once gotten a direct reply to their wishes...whereas, people claim that prayer works in places where there could have been a million influencing factors, like cancer or the economy, or winning a competition, or something. This is one instance where there are NO influencing factors. You cannot spontaneously generate a limb, so you ask God to do it. It's never happened.

Quote:
You don't think that cancer patients live with deficiencies? You don't think all humans live with deficiencies?

This is why you can not compare the two....obviously...none of us are doctors...so none of us COMPLETELY understand what each disease/problem encompasses. So an "answer" to those prayers could involve lessening of pain...complete recovery...a limp...a fake leg........technically...anything that addresses their wound/injury/disease would be an answer.

Either way...humans don't regenerate...so quit expecting it to.

Whoa whoa whoa...lets back track a second. Who is to say that person A has more than person B? While person A may be missing a leg...person B could be missing their vocal chords. Which is worse?

I don't think we have the ability to determine that...where did MS come from? What does any of this have to do with what we're talking about?

You seem to be pointing at "favortism" for cancer patients over amputees.

Do you not see a problem with this logic of trying to defeat the idea by making it hateable?

What if he DOES favor cancer patients over amputees?

What then?

(If we play your game...we could go on forever....I don't think that argument is much of an argument.)

I'm not saying be thankful you're alive...I don't know where you got that.
The Christian mindset is "be happy you're alive and shutup".

Rebal, I already explained this. Cancer and a severed limb are both negative situations. Prayers apparently aleve people of their negative situation involving cancer...but have NEVER helped a person with their negative situation of losing a limb. Thus, one group gets to return to a positive situation, and one group has to just deal with having a negative situation for the rest of their lives. How is that fair?

And even regardless, are you going to tell me that there has not been ONE SINGLE CASE where getting a limb back would be God's idea of the best thing for a person? Not ONE case? If God works how you say he does, then the world would be a sh*tload more random.

Even so, are you telling me that if God wants you to have that leg, he'll make it so when you lose it, it's a clean cut and that you're five feet from a hospital...and if God DOESN'T want you to have that leg, he'll have you out in a minefield in Vietnam where your leg is blown to shreds with no hope of reattaching it? Are you saying God is f*cking with us and there's nothing we can do about it?

Quote:
Right. Both are negative. And while cancer patients...to you...may get answered directly...amputees get direct answers too, but I don't think you'd accept theirs as "direct"...just because it doesn't restored to what you DEEM to be fit. It's not like cancer patients get a completely new body that is perfect and free of all problems/ailements that occurred BEFORE the healing.

Their organs (lungs, tongues, mouths, colons, etc) don't just reappear....they lose pieces too....because humans don't regenerate.
So basically, you're telling me that it's God's way, or the highway. Nice, loving God.

What if you just want your f*cking limb back? What if you don't want all this other "alternative" bullsh*t? That's total crap. I know if I lost my arm, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that would satisfy me until I got my (real) arm back. Nothing.

Quote:
And like Cleetus said...you have a negative one.

So if you're going to play in my realm...where God exist...you play by the rules that I was taught. And likewise...when I play in your realm...I play by the rules YOU were taught.

You...in fact...are NOT trying to figure out why he favors one over the other.......so don't act like you are. You're trying to use the idea that amputees don't get their prayers answered...and they do. You're ignoring obvious facts here.....so don't tell me you're "looking for answers" when you know damn well that you're just here to state your point of view.

I'm not saying that you can't state your point of view....but you're lying to us.

You're saying "why won't God heal these people"...and I'm saying "HE DOES!"

But your point is not "why won't God heal these people"...your point is that God doesn't exist.

I tried to tell Colostomizer from the start that this is not a good site to base belief on.......so I'm attacking the site.


DIRECTLY...lol.
You have an answer, and I'm telling you that I don't accept that answer. And then, you're not accepting that I don't accept your answer.

Well, I just flat out don't agree with you. Because you have no basis with which to make that claim. And how exactly do you place a "value" on a lost limb? Like God knows exactly what will make up for that limb? And even then, why would he take your limb at all? Why couldn't he just leave you alone to be happy by yourself? Why does God feel the need to "teach us lessons"?

Yes, my point is either that God doesn't exist, or he does not answer our prayers.

Quote:
Lol...now now.

I didn't necessarily say that THAT is how they would get answered...but hey....that could be one. Do know every single amputee?

Have you wiped that possibility that you just described from "answers" of the millions and millions of amputees that have ever existed?

Cause, technically...that COULD be one.

It just wouldn't meet your standards of what a "direct" answer to that problem would be......even though you consider a lack of cancer in once-tumorous places to be a "direct" one??

^^You guys have some weird logic...lol.

But I digress. Ultimately...I think we need to establish a fair question in order to have a fair debate. Loaded questions are the REAL BS.
Nitpicking!

"Direct" means people getting exactly what they asked for. Nothing different. They want cancer removed from their bodies, and that's what happened. Amputees have to settle for something else.

And again, who exactly decided that the scenario I just described was a "fair trade"?


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#55
10-30-2006
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Originally Posted by Cresticles View Post
Yet, you consider yourself not a Chrisitian. Sorry if you stated this before. But what was the real reason you felt... disconnected?
No, I just started to think. It's really that simple. When I was exposed to Christianity as a kid, I didn't do much thinking. Nobody does at that age. Hell, few people truly think at all during their entire lives. Once I started to think about it, I realized that faith is not enough for something to be true. I realized that Christianity doesn't make sense, and I realized that it's wrong to believe in something you don't understand. I recognized the feelings that I had experienced that seemed to indicate God's presence in my life for what they were. I understood that the only acceptable way to consider the truth of any proposition, religious or not, is to engage in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments. I did so with Christianity and came to the conclusion that it was no more valid than any other belief system.
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#56
10-30-2006
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Originally Posted by The Colostomizer View Post
No, I just started to think. It's really that simple. When I was exposed to Christianity as a kid, I didn't do much thinking. Nobody does at that age. Hell, few people truly think at all during their entire lives. Once I started to think about it, I realized that faith is not enough for something to be true. I realized that Christianity doesn't make sense, and I realized that it's wrong to believe in something you don't understand. I recognized the feelings that I had experienced that seemed to indicate God's presence in my life for what they were. I understood that the only acceptable way to consider the truth of any proposition, religious or not, is to engage in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments. I did so with Christianity and came to the conclusion that it was no more valid than any other belief system.
I understand where you're coming from, and I apologize if this sounds juvenile, but perhaps you fully didn't understand God or the Christian faith, which is why you thought it didn't make sense?

Go ahead and bash me, but that's something I thought I should ask.
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#57
10-30-2006
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Originally Posted by cleeeeeeeeeetus! View Post
I understand where you're coming from, and I apologize if this sounds juvenile, but perhaps you fully didn't understand God or the Christian faith, which is why you thought it didn't make sense?

Go ahead and bash me, but that's something I thought I should ask.
That is what a lot of Christians say. I understood Christianity just fine, but I had no use for it. I guess I'm going to hell for throwing away something I never needed.

Last edited by KaLi; 10-30-2006 at 08:19 PM.
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#58
10-30-2006
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Originally Posted by cleeeeeeeeeetus! View Post
I understand where you're coming from, and I apologize if this sounds juvenile, but perhaps you fully didn't understand God or the Christian faith, which is why you thought it didn't make sense?

Go ahead and bash me, but that's something I thought I should ask.
so about the statement you made about GOD hating amps!! what's the point? you think that's a valid question worth reply?
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#59
10-30-2006
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Originally Posted by Sir Lagzalot View Post
so about the statement you made about GOD hating amps!! what's the point? you think that's a valid question worth reply?
What? I have no clue what you said.
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#60
10-30-2006
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Originally Posted by cleeeeeeeeeetus! View Post
I understand where you're coming from, and I apologize if this sounds juvenile, but perhaps you fully didn't understand God or the Christian faith, which is why you thought it didn't make sense?

Go ahead and bash me, but that's something I thought I should ask.
Colos understands God and the Christian faith more than 90% of the Christians I've ever come into contact with. That's why it's overwhelming presence in society is disconcerting to us.


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