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#71
04-16-2009
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Originally Posted by SyKaNe View Post
If you are referring to Zeitgeist and its comparisons and contrasts of Egyptian gods and their mythology and the story of Jesus (I'm going to just assume that you are correct me if I'm wrong) you should definitely do your research because the Jesus story is definitely original. It's interesting that such a small multitude that followed Jesus eventually made Christianity spread so exponentially that it is the world's largest religion, but no, you don't give it divine credit. It's only because of some power hungry men according to the way you depict history to be.
1. I'm not referring to Zeitgeist (fuck Zeitgeist). This was based off some research I did into other religious figures for a project. I posted some links a while ago (and one of them is from religious tolerance like what TMBH posted).
Dionysus and Jesus
Horus and Jesus
Attis and Jesus
Krishna and Jesus

2. As we already said, likely the biggest cause of Christianity's expansion was because individuals with massive power took interest in it. There was even massive riots in Rome against people who didn't convert.
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...you're a terrorist sympathizer. I'd rather be an idiot if that's the choice. At least I'd be a person, though stupid, who is at least on the right side of morality. God doesn't care if you're stupid or not, he does care if you are evil or not.
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#72
04-16-2009
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I see nothing wrong with Pascal's Wager. The counter-arguments I've seen always make predictions about how God judges people.


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#73
04-16-2009
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Originally Posted by WicKeD ASSaSiN View Post
I see nothing wrong with Pascal's Wager. The counter-arguments I've seen always make predictions about how God judges people.
How about the incredibly low odds of having picked the right religion to follow? And the absurdity of choosing to have faith, based on reason?
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#74
04-16-2009
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Originally Posted by davobrosia View Post
How about the incredibly low odds of having picked the right religion to follow? And the absurdity of choosing to have faith, based on reason?
Stop trying to pit religions against each other. Islam is pretty flexible on how you choose to worship. Jews and Christians are accepted as valid religions. Its not only those two religions that must be treated with respect but even the beliefs of those who you have conquered must be respected. Sure, Islam is considered to be the purest form of worship, from an Islam point of view but it is not the only way.

Faith Based on reason... Or using reason to validate not using reason. I know Islam wants humans to strive to find a reason to worship God. It is a religion that understands that something is much easier to follow if it makes sense. That's a practical reason. I don't know if I could give you a reason to prove that using reason to validate not using reason is reasonable. But you first have to tell me if I have interpreted this "faith based on reason" phrase correctly.


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#75
04-16-2009
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Originally Posted by WicKeD ASSaSiN View Post
Stop trying to pit religions against each other. Islam is pretty flexible on how you choose to worship. Jews and Christians are accepted as valid religions. Its not only those two religions that must be treated with respect but even the beliefs of those who you have conquered must be respected. Sure, Islam is considered to be the purest form of worship, from an Islam point of view but it is not the only way.
Stop taking such an Abrahamocentric view of religion. Thanks.
Quote:
Faith Based on reason... Or using reason to validate not using reason. I know Islam wants humans to strive to find a reason to worship God. It is a religion that understands that something is much easier to follow if it makes sense. That's a practical reason. I don't know if I could give you a reason to prove that using reason to validate not using reason is reasonable. But you first have to tell me if I have interpreted this "faith based on reason" phrase correctly.
I meant the seemingly one-way gulf between faith and nonfaith. I don't know a single case of reason converting nonfaith to faith; it always takes a religious or mystical experience, which is beyond the scope of Pascal's wager. For this reason, Pascal's wager only really applies to someone who already has faith and is looking to validate it.
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#76
04-16-2009
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Belief based on "having nothing to lose" is a rather selfish stand.
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#77
04-16-2009
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Originally Posted by davobrosia View Post
Stop taking such an Abrahamocentric view of religion. Thanks.
I knew you were going to mention that. Islam doesn't condemn other non-abrahamic religions to hell either. Only idolatry is expressly forbidden. There is a quote from The prophet in which he says there were 140,000 prophets. Only 5 received holy scriptures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davobrosia View Post
I meant the seemingly one-way gulf between faith and nonfaith. I don't know a single case of reason converting nonfaith to faith; it always takes a religious or mystical experience, which is beyond the scope of Pascal's wager. For this reason, Pascal's wager only really applies to someone who already has faith and is looking to validate it.
That kind of inductive reasoning doesn't prove that Pascal's wager hasn't converted people. But, for the most part, I'd have to agree with you. For someone who doesn't believe in God, using fear could seem like an underhanded tactic and would not be received well. But I really don't see any problems with it.

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Originally Posted by NiceGuy View Post
Belief based on "having nothing to lose" is a rather selfish stand.
Belief is belief: Regardless of your motivation. BUT the initial belief created by Pascal's wager is meant to open up the individual so that they will eventually have less selfish motives for believing. It is not meant to be a philosophy you should base your whole life on.



Last edited by WicKeD ASSaSiN; 04-16-2009 at 06:50 PM.
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#78
04-16-2009
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Originally Posted by WicKeD ASSaSiN View Post
I knew you were going to mention that. Islam doesn't condemn other non-abrahamic religions to hell either. Only idolatry is expressly forbidden. There is a quote from The prophet in which he says there were 140,000 prophets. Only 5 received holy scriptures.
Yeah, woohoo, but Islam isn't the only religion in question. Even if it didn't exist at all, plenty of conflicts would still arise.

Quote:
That kind of inductive reasoning doesn't prove that Pascal's wager hasn't converted people. But, for the most part, I'd have to agree with you. For someone who doesn't believe in God, using fear could seem like an underhanded tactic and would not be received well. But I really don't see any problems with it.
The problem with using fear-based reasoning to try to get to faith is that the fear of picking wrong and being punished by one of the other few thousand gods is, by necessity, greater than the fear of not picking one specific god.
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Last edited by davobrosia; 04-16-2009 at 06:55 PM.
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#79
04-16-2009
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Originally Posted by davobrosia View Post
The problem with using fear-based reasoning to try to get to faith is that the fear of picking wrong and being punished by one of the other few thousand gods is, by necessity, greater than the fear of not picking one specific god.
Are you referring to polytheist religions or do you consider the God of every religion as a separate one? I consider all religions to be from the same God but either distorted or simply presented differently to accommodate a certain culture. Kind of like a perennial philosophy. If you are referring to the polytheist religions, I automatically look at that religion as not worth considering. For any person, it makes less sense to believe in more than one God, let alone one God. That is not to imply that is hard to believe in one God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davobrosia View Post
Yeah, woohoo, but Islam isn't the only religion in question. Even if it didn't exist at all, plenty of conflicts would still arise.
Well I guess you could say Pascal's wager isn't applicable to every religion. Although, The Qur'an specifically makes the same argument in its own words, so it is easily applicable to Islam.



Last edited by WicKeD ASSaSiN; 04-16-2009 at 07:05 PM.
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#80
04-16-2009
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have fun mocking god in hell you blasphemers
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