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MarkedAchilles
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#11
03-03-2007
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Then you are ready for the trials my padawan learner.

This is the question you can ask of most traditions. But if you breed a tradition into a culture for so long, its worth can be more than what it seems. Culture as a whole is uneccesary. But it serves a purpose other than to define a group of people. It makes them happy and secure. Something that we could have without that culture or tradition but, and this may or not be true, could be something inside of us programed into our genes. A need for traditions and culture to define us or to emphasize different things.

So in making just a general observation based on a few of my professors teachings I would contend that certain needs may be programmed within ourselves and we create things to serve those needs such as culture or traditions we still hold. Untill we find a way to fill that need with something else or get that need filled on its own.

Don't know if that makes sense to anyone or not. Poor writing and I don't feel like editing.


-i got kicked out of barnes and noble once for moving all the bibles into the fiction section


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#12
03-03-2007
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Originally Posted by The Colostomizer View Post
Anything can be argued. I love my girlfriend for a number of well defined, logical reasons. There are of course biological motivations for wanting to procreate and all of that good stuff, but I choose who I want to be in a relationship with based on what kind of person the girl is that I would hypothetically be considering.

Love itself is not at all analogous to your thyroid pumping insulin through your body to regulate your blood sugar. It's not a chemical process, it's not driven by biology. It's an idea that should be, and really can only be, backed by reason and logic.
Thats exactly what I was hoping you'd say. Love is such a subjective term that it can't really be summed up in one post. It means so many things to so many people, so when you tell people that they need to 'love' the person they are going to marry, it means so much that they don't know where to begin.
The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion.
-Thomas Paine

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. . .
Chimpanzee (our closest living relative) is a well known homosexual animal.. . .
Rebal771
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#13
03-05-2007
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I think marriage was probably created (somewhere along the lines) as a way to "draw lines" in relationships. Like...it basically says "hey...if I'm going to commit to you...then we're going to make it binding", and I think that people have a right to make that request.

If I'm going to share myself with someone (in all capacities that are described through marriage)...I sure as hell want to be the only one who does that with that person. It's kinda like property...but instead of "owning" it...you get the contractual obligation with the consequences of breaking that contract for both of you.

If you feel that you are a good person...and that the other person is a good one, too...marriage is simply a step you take. However...for the rest of the people who do not understand that contract...it seems more like a burden.

The point is...marriage, as an institution, was not created so that people could b*tch about their spouses...it was so their spouses couldn't go whoring themselves around without getting in trouble with it. It's accountability.
It's contractual trust.

I understand your point about "trusting someone enough"...but honestly, how many humans are fully trust-worthy? Even the most trustable person gives people doubts...simply because they ARE the most trust-worthy.

Maybe we have strayed from Marriage's "intended" purpose. Who knows? But the accountability that is introduced by the contract is part of what people value today.

Could we do without it? Maybe. We might have some trouble encouraging productivity within families without it...but there might still be some survivors.

If everyone wasn't already doing it, would it occur to us in this day and age to do it? I'm not sure about marriage, itself...unless we're allowing that to be synonymous with "civil union"...but either way...I think that SOME type of contract would have birthed by now. We have trusts, unions, incorporations, dual citizenship, lease contracts, ownership contracts, and plenty of other types of unifying institutions or "processes" that allow two entities to combine and be noted as one...so I think we would have developed something by now, if it had not been already anyway.

Do I have problems with Marriage? Yeah...plenty.

But would I say that it's completely useless? No. I think it's still worth something to a lot of people...even though it may not be worth something to everyone. The fact that it still retains value, at all, is what makes it worth recognizing and understanding. You don't have to agree with it or it's premises...you just have to recognize that it exists, because it does.
Pretty profound, huh?

One man's trash is another man's treasure.


***EDIT***
Oh yeah...and "love" has little to do with marriage. Love is a completely different subject with subjective understanding/comprehension. We should stick to discussing marriage at the moment.
Lol.

THANKS SOLID................................& STORMS!!!

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Last edited by Rebal771; 03-05-2007 at 12:00 PM.
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#14
03-05-2007
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Originally Posted by Rebal771 View Post
Oh yeah...and "love" has little to do with marriage. Love is a completely different subject with subjective understanding/comprehension. We should stick to discussing marriage at the moment.
That's crazy talk. Marriage is the natural extension of love. It's absolutely necessary for a rewarding marriage. Lack of understanding it is why so many marriages fail.
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#15
03-05-2007
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Originally Posted by The Colostomizer View Post
That's crazy talk. Marriage is the natural extension of love. It's absolutely necessary for a rewarding marriage. Lack of understanding it is why so many marriages fail.
I think so many fail because I end up nailing the chicks and their husbands have a lack of understanding of my pimp hand. Counterpoint.
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#16
03-05-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebal771 View Post
I think marriage was probably created (somewhere along the lines) as a way to "draw lines" in relationships. Like...it basically says "hey...if I'm going to commit to you...then we're going to make it binding", and I think that people have a right to make that request.

If I'm going to share myself with someone (in all capacities that are described through marriage)...I sure as hell want to be the only one who does that with that person. It's kinda like property...but instead of "owning" it...you get the contractual obligation with the consequences of breaking that contract for both of you.
If you can't be sure that the person you are committing to is the only one you are doing that with, than marriage isn't going to solve the myriad of problems that that doubt seems to imply that your (hypothetical) relationship has.

Quote:
If you feel that you are a good person...and that the other person is a good one, too...marriage is simply a step you take. However...for the rest of the people who do not understand that contract...it seems more like a burden.
I understand the contract plenty, I just feel it's (for lack of a better term) stupid, especially considering that it's only a successful contract 50% of the time.


Quote:
The point is...marriage, as an institution, was not created so that people could b*tch about their spouses...it was so their spouses couldn't go whoring themselves around without getting in trouble with it. It's accountability.
It's contractual trust.
You cannot put trust in a contract. Stating that you trust someone is absolutely meaningless unless you actually show through your actions that you trust them.


Quote:
I understand your point about "trusting someone enough"...but honestly, how many humans are fully trust-worthy? Even the most trustable person gives people doubts...simply because they ARE the most trust-worthy.

Maybe we have strayed from Marriage's "intended" purpose. Who knows? But the accountability that is introduced by the contract is part of what people value today.
I again point to the divorce rate to illustrate the ineffectiveness of marriage's role in holding people accountable for the commitment they are making.


Quote:
Could we do without it? Maybe. We might have some trouble encouraging productivity within families without it...but there might still be some survivors.

If everyone wasn't already doing it, would it occur to us in this day and age to do it? I'm not sure about marriage, itself...unless we're allowing that to be synonymous with "civil union"...but either way...I think that SOME type of contract would have birthed by now. We have trusts, unions, incorporations, dual citizenship, lease contracts, ownership contracts, and plenty of other types of unifying institutions or "processes" that allow two entities to combine and be noted as one...so I think we would have developed something by now, if it had not been already anyway.
If you take love out of the equation, people uniting to form one unity could be a great thing, it would allow them to be recognized as two people with similar goals who are working together to achieve them. There needn't be the factor of love present. Why can't 2 roommates agree to live together for a while and enjoy the same benefits of a married couple under the law? Let's say they sign a a contract to live together for about 5 years and under that contract they share expenses and everything like that. How is that any different from a marriage that goes 5 years without children?

Quote:
Do I have problems with Marriage? Yeah...plenty.
Really? So do I.

Quote:
But would I say that it's completely useless? No. I think it's still worth something to a lot of people...even though it may not be worth something to everyone. The fact that it still retains value, at all, is what makes it worth recognizing and understanding. You don't have to agree with it or it's premises...you just have to recognize that it exists, because it does.
Pretty profound, huh?

One man's trash is another man's treasure.
There are lot's of things that aren't useless. That doesn't make them good. The above quoted paragraph could could easily be describing slavery.

Quote:
***EDIT***
Oh yeah...and "love" has little to do with marriage. Love is a completely different subject with subjective understanding/comprehension. We should stick to discussing marriage at the moment.
Lol.
I know a few people get married out of utility, but I would imagine that that is a rare occurrence, so I would argue that love is intrinsically tied to marriage. You can have love without marriage, and I would say love without marriage is probably better, but I don't see how you can have a marriage (at least a successful one) that isn't based on love.


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#17
03-05-2007
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Originally Posted by Darth Hulk View Post
I know a few people get married out of utility, but I would imagine that that is a rare occurrence, so I would argue that love is intrinsically tied to marriage. You can have love without marriage, and I would say love without marriage is probably better, but I don't see how you can have a marriage (at least a successful one) that isn't based on love.
A surprising amount of arranged marriages go over pretty well, but that's just because they have no illusions about loving each other.
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#18
03-05-2007
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Originally Posted by The Colostomizer View Post
A surprising amount of arranged marriages go over pretty well, but that's just because they have no illusions about loving each other.
I doubt that is the reason. I'm more inclined to think that its the cultural outlook on divorce that provides for the discrepancy between the success of arranged marriages as opposed to selected spouse marriages.
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#19
03-05-2007
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Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
I doubt that is the reason. I'm more inclined to think that its the cultural outlook on divorce that provides for the discrepancy between the success of arranged marriages as opposed to selected spouse marriages.
OoOoOOOOhhhh. That's a good one.

Anyway...the point, Darth, is that your cynical view is not the same one that everyone else has.

While your points are valid...I hardly think they are strong enough to topple the entire institution of marriage. You know plenty about how jaded people can get about things like "marriage" and "religion". It can be very...how do I say...it can really make you want to pound your head into a wall?

But just because you point out how hypocritical it all is doesn't mean that people will abandon the idea or the practice. It's "worked" this far...why wouldn't it keep working? (I know you're going to come back with the "BUT IT DOESN'T WORK" comment...and for that...I'll just redirect you to Britney Spears. <-In actual practice...It may not work AT ALL. But has that stopped anyone from getting married in the past year or so?
Probably not.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hulk
There are lot's of things that aren't useless. That doesn't make them good. The above quoted paragraph could could easily be describing slavery.
So are we debating Marriage's morality here? Because the idea (now-a-days) is that marriage is supposed to keep people morally accountable, and they are supposed to feel threatened, CONSTANTLY, by that band around their left finger. I'm not saying that slavery was good either.
But it existed. You can't deny it...and your approach to fighting it seems like an improbable way of convincing the masses. All I'm saying is that it exists.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colostomizer
That's crazy talk. Marriage is the natural extension of love. It's absolutely necessary for a rewarding marriage. Lack of understanding it is why so many marriages fail.
Is it so crazy? I mean...to you and me...Marriage IS the natural extension of love. But is it that way to everybody? I would say probably not to EVERYONE. And on top of that...you can't really deny the point that marriage and love are two completely different subjects. Although they can definitely be related and tied to each other...my point was that discussing love will take us further from the topic at hand than if we just discussed marriage, independant of love.

I'm not denying that it extends from there...but I'm trying to keep from taking this discussion too far away from what Hulk is talking about, and that is, as I understand it, the institution of marriage and why it still exists in the capacities that it does today.
I think we should save our "love" discussion for a different thread.

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#20
03-05-2007
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Originally Posted by Rebal771 View Post
OoOoOOOOhhhh. That's a good one.

Anyway...the point, Darth, is that your cynical view is not the same one that everyone else has.

While your points are valid...I hardly think they are strong enough to topple the entire institution of marriage. You know plenty about how jaded people can get about things like "marriage" and "religion". It can be very...how do I say...it can really make you want to pound your head into a wall?

But just because you point out how hypocritical it all is doesn't mean that people will abandon the idea or the practice. It's "worked" this far...why wouldn't it keep working? (I know you're going to come back with the "BUT IT DOESN'T WORK" comment...and for that...I'll just redirect you to Britney Spears. <-In actual practice...It may not work AT ALL. But has that stopped anyone from getting married in the past year or so?
Probably not.)
I'm not looking for people to stop doing it, I'm looking to see if anyone can adequately explain to me why it should continue. I don't plan on extinguishing the institution, nor do I have any expectation of it ever going away. I may in fact get married one day.

I also disagree that my view is cynical. My view is simply that we don't need marriage. In fact, I'll go one further and contend that your view that we need to be held accountable by marriage is the cynical view because it presupposes that humans can't sustain a lifelong partnership without some form of binding contract. If that's the case, than we have no business getting involved in lifelong partnerships in the first place. Maybe instead of saying, "I want to be with you forever," we should say, "I want to be with you as long as you want to be with me." That is basically what marriage has become anyway, except it's not that binding. It's more like, "I want to be with you until I find something better or until you bore the hell out of me." That's just stupid and not indicative of anything that marriage is supposed to be.



Quote:
So are we debating Marriage's morality here? Because the idea (now-a-days) is that marriage is supposed to keep people morally accountable, and they are supposed to feel threatened, CONSTANTLY, by that band around their left finger. I'm not saying that slavery was good either.
But it existed. You can't deny it...and your approach to fighting it seems like an improbable way of convincing the masses. All I'm saying is that it exists.
Obviously I know it exists, what is the point in even pointing that out? I wouldn't be sitting here typing about how stupid I think it is if it didn't exist.



Quote:
Is it so crazy? I mean...to you and me...Marriage IS the natural extension of love. But is it that way to everybody? I would say probably not to EVERYONE. And on top of that...you can't really deny the point that marriage and love are two completely different subjects. Although they can definitely be related and tied to each other...my point was that discussing love will take us further from the topic at hand than if we just discussed marriage, independant of love.

I'm not denying that it extends from there...but I'm trying to keep from taking this discussion too far away from what Hulk is talking about, and that is, as I understand it, the institution of marriage and why it still exists in the capacities that it does today.
I think we should save our "love" discussion for a different thread.

I wouldn't take love out of the equation, even if my points only highlight (what I find to be) the absurdity and impracticality of marriage. As I said earlier, they are intrinsically tied together. Marriage without love is ridiculous and a waste of time for all involved.


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