Halo 2 Forum > Off-topic > Debate Forum > Religion Debate
 
 
Display Modes Thread Tools
Look_unto_Jesus
Level 10
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 26
Subtract from Look_unto_Jesus's ReputationAdd to Look_unto_Jesus's Reputation Look_unto_Jesus is a novice
#81
06-28-2008
Default

Yes, I know that I will lose a lot of respect for believing Genesis to be literal, but that's fine because I don't want respect as much as I want God to be glorified, His Name uplifted, and His Word spread. Besides, I aught not to be the one respected, He should. I don't want your respect, I just want your soul saved from Hell and in Heaven somday in paradise instead of that awful place. There is reason to believe that Genesis' account of creation is literal. How could the days mentioned not be literal days? How could they be years and years as some Old-Earth Creationists believe? Just examine the first two chapters of Genesis and see. It tells over and over again "And the evening and the morning..." whenever the days ended and it tells us what day it was. This tells us that the evening and morning went by and the day ended, so then it moved on to the next day. How could it stay day time for years and years and years or night time for years and years and years? God didn't create the sun until the fourth day by the way, so wouldn't the plants die if they had to wait for thousands of years or possibly millions of years (used figuratively as a "day" to many Old Earth Creationists' interpretation) for God to create the sun for them? So, logically, I believe that they would have to be literal days.


So then, about Christ being God and the Son of God: The One true God exists in Three Persons--the Father, the Word(also called "the Son"), and the Holy Spirit(see I John 5:7). This doctrine is called by the many "the doctrine of the Trinity" or "the Holy Trinity". Basically, God is Three Persons in One Being.

Anyway, Jesus, the Word, became a man(see John 1:1-14). He was conceived by God in the womb of the virgin Mary, but this was not the beginning of His existence as birth is for us. Jesus preexisted as "the Word" long before He was conceived in physical form by the Holy Spirit in Mary. Christ existed before anything ever was. He was the Creator in fact(see Colossians 1:14-20). He was the eternal God Himself--Jehovah.

God had to send Jesus to die for our sins and to shed His blood as a sacriface to Him to satisfy His wrath against sinners. God has no tolerence for sin. As a holy God Who is perfect and righteous, He cannot forgive us for our sins apart from the blood of Christ(God's blood) because He would be unrighteous to do so as the holy and infinite God that He is. God is eternal. Sinning against Him has eternal consequences. However, the blood of Jesus also eternally washes away sin. Jesus has applied His shed blood in Heaven in the holy place in the presence of God. Jesus acted as both the sacriface and the High Priest. He died for our sins and shed His blood as the Lamb, and He rose again and applied His blood in the holy place in Heaven as the High Priest(see Hebrews Chapter 9). You see, if Jesus never came, us repenting would not be able to save us at all. To repent means to have a change of mind. No matter how much we changed our mind about our sin and/or about God, if Jesus never came and did what He did for us, we could repent all we want but there would never be able to turn to the One Who could save us--Jesus Christ. God came to save those He could not tolerate entering into His heavenly Kingdom--sinners. Why? Because He loved the world. He loved sinners like you and me. How? I cannot explain that. The love of God demonstrated at the blood-soaked cross of Calvary is unexplainable to our finite human minds.

Jesus had to come to save us from our sin for us to go to Heaven and not suffer His wrath for eternity. He was the only One Who could pay the debt we owed without us having to pay it for eternity.

Last edited by Look_unto_Jesus; 06-28-2008 at 10:08 AM.
Look_unto_Jesus
Level 10
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 26
Subtract from Look_unto_Jesus's ReputationAdd to Look_unto_Jesus's Reputation Look_unto_Jesus is a novice
#82
06-28-2008
Default

I would also like to correct myself here. Please forgive me for my error.

Jesus came to this earth to die for our sins, but that was not the only reason He was born. He was also born as the Messiah of course, to rule as King of Israel and as King of kings and Lord of lords over the Earth, but this will happen at His second coming. Dying for the sins of the world and applying His blood in Heaven before God the Father was the main goal for His first coming because He had to provide eternal redemption for fallen man. In His Second Coming, He will rule and reign in the millenial Kingdom and then Judge all who rejected Him as their Saviour at the Day of Judgement afterwards.

After the Day of Judgement comes the Eternal Age. Those who trusted Christ as their Saviour will be with Him and live for eternity in the new heavens and new earth, while those who rejected Him will be tormented in the lake of fire for eternity along with the devil and his angels.

Last edited by Look_unto_Jesus; 06-28-2008 at 09:07 AM.
McDevy
Soshified
McDevy's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Skag Gully
Posts: 10,941
Subtract from McDevy's ReputationAdd to McDevy's Reputation McDevy is a novice
#83
06-28-2008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Look_unto_Jesus View Post
Yes, I know that I will lose a lot of respect for believing Jesus to be literal, but that's fine because I don't want respect as much as I want God to be glorified, His Name uplifted, and His Word spread. Besides, I aught not to be the one respected, He should. I don't want your respect, I just want your soul saved from Hell and in Heaven somday in paradise instead of that awful place. There is reason to believe that Genesis' account of creation is literal. How could the days mentioned not be literal days? How could they be years and years as some Old-Earth Creationists believe? Just examine the first two chapters of Genesis and see. It tells over and over again "And the evening and the morning..." whenever the days ended and it tells us what day it was. This tells us that the evening and morning went by and the day ended, so then it moved on to the next day. How could it stay day time for years and years and years or night time for years and years and years? God didn't create the sun until the fourth day by the way, so wouldn't the plants die if they had to wait for thousands of years or possibly millions of years (used figuratively as a "day" to many Old Earth Creationists' interpretation) for God to create the sun for them? So, logically, I believe that they would have to be literal days.
Lol, you've cross-destroyed your argument in 2 ways:

1) No one disagrees on the literalism that is Genesis

2) Above should automatically then disregard and invalidate any validity or truth of Genesis.

Stop preaching.

[quote]So then, about Christ being God and the Son of God: The One true God exists in Three Persons--the Father, the Word(also called "the Son"), and the Holy Spirit(see I John 5:7). This doctrine is called by the many "the doctrine of the Trinity" or "the Holy Trinity". Basically, God is Three Persons in One Being.[quote]

Stop preaching. We know the bible, you didn't directly answer my question, again.

Quote:
Anyway, Jesus, the Word, became a man(see John 1:1-14). He was conceived by God in the womb of the virgin Mary, but this was not the beginning of His existence as birth is for us. Jesus preexisted as "the Word" long before He was conceived in physical form by the Holy Spirit in Mary. Christ existed before anything ever was. He was the Creator in fact(see Colossians 1:14-20). He was the eternal God Himself--Jehovah.
...

Quote:
God had to send Jesus to die for our sins and to shed His blood as a sacriface to Him to satisfy His wrath against sinners. God has no tolerence for sin. As a holy God Who is perfect and righteous, He cannot forgive us for our sins apart from the blood of Christ(God's blood) because He would be unrighteous to do so as the holy and infinite God that He is. God is eternal. Sinning against Him has eternal consequences. However, the blood of Jesus also eternally washes away sin.
That makes no sense on the Jesus part.

I'll reiterate my point again:

If God was all perfect and righteous and could not tolerate sin; one would deduce that he didn't give humans a break from commiting sin. He condemned it, the only way you could be saved was to accept God.

If that were true, there would be no need to go to all the trouble of sending Jesus down to die, for a irrelevant reason to him actually dying.

He didn't die for our sins, you make it sound like he paid off some of our baggage.

If that were true, then there would be no more punishment for sin, or any reason that humans would sin anymore or not accept the word of God and repent.

Quote:
Jesus has applied His shed blood in Heaven in the holy place in the presence of God. Jesus acted as both the sacriface and the High Priest. He died for our sins and shed His blood as the Lamb, and He rose again and applied His blood in the holy place in Heaven as the High Priest(see Hebrews Chapter 9). You see, if Jesus never came, us repenting would not be able to save us at all. To repent means to have a change of mind. No matter how much we changed our mind about our sin and/or about God, if Jesus never came and did what He did for us, we could repent all we want but there would never be able to turn to the One Who could save us--Jesus Christ.
False witness.

You stated that one could not possibly have a change of mind or an epiphany rather, that one could change for the good without the presence of Jesus, thousands of years ago.

Why would a presence of a person then justify the possibility to change your mind? Are you implying the possibility to repent and be a good person was absent before Jesus?

If that was such a deciding factor in which you would be saved, I don't understand the lack of witness, historical documentation for such a determining event.

I also don't understand why, since the above is true, why God hasn't sent multiple messiahs to keep refreshing and reinforcing the truth and word of God.

Your gospels even though that was going to happen, predicting the second coming, and that never happened...

Quote:
God came to save those He could not tolerate entering into His heavenly Kingdom--sinners. Why? Because He loved the world.
And somehow the best symbolism and action for changing this and helping the sinners was for an avatar of him, being Jesus, dying on a cross?

Quote:
He loved sinners like you and me. How? I cannot explain that. The love of God demonstrated at the blood-soaked cross of Calvary is unexplainable to our finite human minds.
If you cannot explain, you should stop believing in such things.

If you adopted that belief system outside of religion you would be laughed at, jailed, labeling insane, and have the most difficult time living - for you would not have a clue of how the world was working.

You have no authority to state that our minds are finite or even what our capabilities are.

Quote:
Jesus had to come to save us from our sin for us to go to Heaven and not suffer His wrath for eternity. He was the only One Who could pay the debt we owed without us having to pay it for eternity.
Stop preaching.
Look_unto_Jesus
Level 10
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 26
Subtract from Look_unto_Jesus's ReputationAdd to Look_unto_Jesus's Reputation Look_unto_Jesus is a novice
#84
06-28-2008
Default

It depends on what you mean by "before Jesus". Before He was born? Yes, people repented towards God before Christ came many times. Israel had to repent a lot in the Old Testament and God even repented in the Old Testament.



Jesus always has been, so there was repentance before He was physically born on earth, of course, because Jesus is God.


Why is there still punishment for sin? Because people do not accept the payment that Christ has made or because people keep rebelling against Christ. Christ paid the price of our sins one time for all time with His blood, but we must personally accept His payment for ourselves by putting our faith in Him as our Saviour. Only then can we escape God's wrath. Jesus didn't just die for our sins and abolish all forms of sin forever at that moment. He just paid for our sins so we could be saved by believing on Him. Sin won't be gone forever until after He returns and judges the world. Our sins are gone whenever we believe on Christ.

There are lots of things we can't explain that we believe in. No matter how much the scoffers say they understand the universe and how life began and works, they don't, so should they stop believing in life and the universe?

As for Genesis, no that wouldn't invalidate it in any way. God created light the first day, and created the sun and the moon the fourth day. This is logical because God would have to first create light before creating the sun and moon because if He created the sun and moon without creating light then the sun and moon would give off no light at all because there would be none.

Last edited by Look_unto_Jesus; 06-28-2008 at 09:32 AM.
Look_unto_Jesus
Level 10
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 26
Subtract from Look_unto_Jesus's ReputationAdd to Look_unto_Jesus's Reputation Look_unto_Jesus is a novice
#85
06-28-2008
Default

Our minds being finite is truth, sir. You cannot say that man has an infinite mind. We don't. We are not gods. We are imperfect.
McDevy
Soshified
McDevy's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Skag Gully
Posts: 10,941
Subtract from McDevy's ReputationAdd to McDevy's Reputation McDevy is a novice
#86
06-28-2008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Look_unto_Jesus View Post
It depends on what you mean by "before Jesus". Before He was born? Yes, people repented towards God before Christ came many times. Israel had to repent a lot in the Old Testament and God even repented in the Old Testament.
That's contradicting your previous statements. You stated you needed Jesus Christ before you could repent, if he was eternal and always was - no one would ever know unless a physical avatar was brought down to represent that.

Too bad that only happened suposedly once and not many people witnessed this event.

Can you not sympathize or even reason that anyone would have a hard time taking your word or the bible's?

Quote:
Jesus always has been, so there was repentance before He was physically born on earth, of course, because Jesus is God.
My point above still stands.

Quote:
Why is there still punishment for sin? Because people do not accept the payment that Christ has made or because people keep rebelling against Christ. Christ paid the price of our sins one time for all time with His blood, but we must personally accept His payment for ourselves by putting our faith in Him as our Saviour. Only then can we escape God's wrath. Jesus didn't just die for our sins and abolish all forms of sin forever at that moment. He just paid for our sins so we could be saved by believing on Him. Sin won't be gone forever until after He returns and judges the world. Our sins are gone whenever we believe on Christ.
You didn't answer my question, I didn't ask why there is punishment for sin, I asked why sin is inexplicably unaltered unless you accept Jesus.

Quote:
There are lots of things we can't explain that we believe in. No matter how much the scoffers say they understand the universe and how life began and works, they don't, so should they stop believing in life and the universe?
What the hell are you talking about?

We can explain alot, we're being humble. One could not ever know all, it's a work in progress.

Taking cheap shots and calling intellectual honest people "scoffers" and then presenting an ignorant empty statement like "well, they don't know" is bullshit and won't be tolerated here.

Quote:
As for Genesis, no that wouldn't invalidate it in any way. God created light the first day, and created the sun and the moon the fourth day. This is logical because God would have to first create light before creating the sun and moon because if He created the sun and moon without creating light then the sun and moon would give off no light at all because there would be none.
It completely validates it. You missed addressing my point, again, completely.

You ignored my request for educating and preaching me on the bible.

I'm not putting my time and effort into refuting your preaching and dodging refutes.

See ya.
Look_unto_Jesus
Level 10
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 26
Subtract from Look_unto_Jesus's ReputationAdd to Look_unto_Jesus's Reputation Look_unto_Jesus is a novice
#87
06-28-2008
Default

Alright. Goodbye. Thank you for your time.
McDevy
Soshified
McDevy's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Skag Gully
Posts: 10,941
Subtract from McDevy's ReputationAdd to McDevy's Reputation McDevy is a novice
#88
06-28-2008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Look_unto_Jesus View Post
Alright. Goodbye. Thank you for your time.
You're in our section. I suggest you leave if you can't debate correctly.

Last edited by McDevy; 06-28-2008 at 02:23 PM.
Tormaster
Level 24
Tormaster's Avatar
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Ina van down by the river
Posts: 766
Subtract from Tormaster's ReputationAdd to Tormaster's Reputation Tormaster is a novice
Send a message via AIM to Tormaster Send a message via MSN to Tormaster
#89
06-28-2008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BORAT IS FOLLY View Post
You're our section. I suggest you leave if you can't correctly debate.
Agreed, learn how to debate properly Jesus

GT: torwizzle

add for customs and all that crap.
davobrosia
Ask Z for $50
davobrosia's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 22,593
Subtract from davobrosia's ReputationAdd to davobrosia's Reputation davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000
Send a message via AIM to davobrosia
#90
06-28-2008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BORAT IS FOLLY View Post
You're in our section. I suggest you leave if you can't debate correctly.
Why did you move the adverb?
Spoiler!
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off