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muRda
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#71
06-11-2008
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Originally Posted by NickfaT View Post
But why were we born with an inclination to sin? What was the cause of that, and why was Jesus necessary to save us from it?

And even though Jesus supposedly died on the cross for "our" sins, we still are inclined to sin. It doesn't seem like he solved much for us. If I sin, can't I simply go to confession to be saved? Why was Jesus's sacrifice so important as far as the elimination of original sin goes?
I Google'd it since I haven't been as hardcore into religion as I used to be: http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2ORSIN.htm

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#72
06-23-2008
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Originally Posted by NickfaT View Post
How many people here interpret the creation accounts in Genesis literally? My guess is not many.

So explain where original sin came from, and why Jesus was sent to suffer for it. According to the Bible, original sin originated with Adam and Eve. Except nobody really takes that story literally, so I would like an answer.
If you don't know...

Adam and Eve is not a true story, it is a symbolizing story, but being imperfect, we are born with original sin, so are you, but you don't believe it, just as I don't believe the same as you, but thats fine
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#73
06-23-2008
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Originally Posted by I KoP I BLaZiN View Post
If you don't know...

Adam and Eve is not a true story, it is a symbolizing story, but being imperfect, we are born with original sin, so are you, but you don't believe it, just as I don't believe the same as you, but thats fine
What is this original sin? Man is not born bad; sin is an action, and no infant can commit any sinful acts. I think I already addressed this earlier in the thread. The concept of original sin, when rationalized instead of accepted through tradition, is simply senseless.
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#74
06-23-2008
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Originally Posted by I KoP I BLaZiN View Post
If you don't know...

Adam and Eve is not a true story, it is a symbolizing story, but being imperfect, we are born with original sin, so are you, but you don't believe it, just as I don't believe the same as you, but thats fine
Um, I don't know where your Biblical references for justifying this, because Adam and Eve is not generally considered to be a symbolic story.

Look at the start of Genesis 5. This is the book of the generations of Adam.... How is this interpreted as symbolic? It sounds straightforward to me.

I've never considered the Genesis account to be symbolic. Heck, Gen. 10 starts out as a long geneology list of that time, which is in no way symbolic.

Sure, I know Genesis contradicts macroevolution, but I'm okay with that. I've never been fond of apes any way.


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#75
06-23-2008
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Originally Posted by TooMuchButtHair View Post
Furthermore, why would anyone pay for the crimes of others? How incompetent is god, really.
Speaking in a more modern tone, if the person you most loved was fated to an eternity of torture, and this is a literal eternity, would you not give your life for them if you knew you would move on to a better place?


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#76
06-23-2008
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Originally Posted by KSS AlterEcho View Post
Speaking in a more modern tone, if the person you most loved was fated to an eternity of torture, and this is a literal eternity, would you not give your life for them if you knew you would move on to a better place?
That last part negates the concept of sacrifice. You're doing it for personal reward, not for the sake of the individual. Sacrifice would mean you spend the eternity in hell - not ascend to heaven as well.
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#77
06-23-2008
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Originally Posted by Wowee 22 View Post
Um, I don't know where your Biblical references for justifying this, because Adam and Eve is not generally considered to be a symbolic story.

Look at the start of Genesis 5. This is the book of the generations of Adam.... How is this interpreted as symbolic? It sounds straightforward to me.

I've never considered the Genesis account to be symbolic. Heck, Gen. 10 starts out as a long geneology list of that time, which is in no way symbolic.

Sure, I know Genesis contradicts macroevolution, but I'm okay with that. I've never been fond of apes any way.
Not fond of apes? You realize humans ARE apes, right? We are one of the four great APES. It is impossible to classify humans taxonomically, genetically, physically, or by any other objective means as anything other than apes in the exact same way it is impossible to classify a chimp as anything but an ape. Your ignorance, still, amazes me.

Even after I handed that anti-evolution his ass in the Evolution: A failed hypothesis thread you still reject a demonstrably correct theory. I cannot understand willful ignorance. You and those of like mind will be the end of humanity as we know it.
The study of theology, as it stands in the Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authority; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion.
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. . .
Chimpanzee (our closest living relative) is a well known homosexual animal.. . .
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#78
06-24-2008
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Originally Posted by TooMuchButtHair View Post
Not fond of apes? You realize humans ARE apes, right? We are one of the four great APES. It is impossible to classify humans taxonomically, genetically, physically, or by any other objective means as anything other than apes in the exact same way it is impossible to classify a chimp as anything but an ape. Your ignorance, still, amazes me.

Even after I handed that anti-evolution his ass in the Evolution: A failed hypothesis thread you still reject a demonstrably correct theory. I cannot understand willful ignorance. You and those of like mind will be the end of humanity as we know it.
I call this - "Butthair humor."

It's a tad bit twisted, yet very right and edgy at the same time.
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#79
06-27-2008
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Answer to original sin, why Jesus came, and creation:


The Roman Catholic concept that we are all born with an original sin and must be baptized as infants or we cannot go to Heaven if we die as infants is not Scriptural. When a baby dies it goes to Heaven because it did not know about right and wrong yet.

However, we are born in sin(see Psalm 51:5). This does not mean we are born being guilty of doing wrong, but we are born with a fallen nature, a sin-nature, due to Adam and Eve's rebellion and we are paying for the sin of Adam, the father of mankind, by physical death. This is why there is death in the world, because of Adam and Eve's sin.

However, eternal damnation in the lake of fire and brimestone is a result of our own sins that we have willingly commited. One sin, even one lie, is enough to send you to Hell forever because no sin can enter Heaven and all sin must be paid for, and the penalty is death. The Bible is clear that even so much as all liars will go to the lake of fire(see Revelation 21:8). It only takes one lie to make you a liar. So then, we are sinners by conception, and also sinners by choice. The act of being born is not sinful. Children are precious in the sight of God. But, we are all born with a sin-nature and we are all going to sin, but we must remember that when we do sin, we choose to do so. We choose to give in to our sin-nature, so we are guilty of sinning against God ourselves and we are completely responsible and accountible for our actions.

The only man who was not born with this sin-nature was the Lord Jesus Christ, because He was begotten of God and born of a virgin. His blood was not Adam's blood, but God's blood. He came to this earth as God in the flesh to pay the price for our sins by the shedding of His blood and His death on Calvary. He was also was buried, and then rose again from the dead and applied His blood in Heaven for our justification. He can and will now save all who come to Him in faith. The Bible says "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13). Jesus paid for our sins for us to save us. God's justice had to be satisfied. The only thing that could satisfy Him was either the guilty paying what they owed(eternal death in Hellfire for sinning against Him, an eternal God of infinite benevolence), or someone paying the penalty of death and paying for the sins of the guilty with the price of their sinless and perfect blood. The only One Who was perfect enough to do this was Jesus Christ, God Himself in human form. Jesus Christ, God the Son, paid the price for our sins because of the love He had towards mankind. God hates sin, and will not by any means justify it or let it go unpaid for, but Jesus Christ took the penalty for our sins and paid for our sins for us in full by His blood. None of us can just "stop sinning" as long as we live in these sinful bodies of flesh, but once we get saved by trusting Christ as our Saviour, He can help us to live for Him and be holy before God. We can't save ourselves, only Jesus can save us, and He does that whenever we believe upon Him as our Saviour.

Unlike many people out there, I am one who takes the account of Creation in Genesis literally. I believe that God created the heavens and the earth in six literal days.

Last edited by Look_unto_Jesus; 06-27-2008 at 03:27 PM.
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#80
06-27-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Look_unto_Jesus View Post
Answer to original sin, why Jesus came, and creation:


The Roman Catholic concept that we are all born with an original sin and must be baptized as infants or we cannot go to Heaven if we die as infants is not Scriptural. When a baby dies it goes to Heaven because it did not know about right and wrong yet.

However, we are born in sin(see Psalm 51:5). This does not mean we are born being guilty of doing wrong, but we are born with a fallen nature, a sin-nature, due to Adam and Eve's rebellion and we are paying for the sin of Adam, the father of mankind, by physical death. This is why there is death in the world, because of Adam and Eve's sin.
That's all fine for understanding the conceptual passages of the bible.

But none of it could be validated or confirmed; the ideas themself only come from that book (same goes for every other religion doctrine book).

I would really like to see this approach spoke as if this is stricly an interpretation and isn't what is, in respect to our reality, since these passages have no basis.

Quote:
However, eternal damnation in the lake of fire and brimestone is a result of our own sins that we have willingly commited. One sin, even one lie, is enough to send you to Hell forever because no sin can enter Heaven and all sin must be paid for, and the penalty is death. The Bible is clear that even so much as all liars will go to the lake of fire(see Revelation 21:8). It only takes one lie to make you a liar. So then, we are sinners by conception, and also sinners by choice. The act of being born is not sinful. Children are precious in the sight of God. But, we are all born with a sin-nature and we are all going to sin, but we must remember that when we do sin, we choose to do so. We choose to give in to our sin-nature, so we are guilty of sinning against God ourselves and we are completely responsible and accountible for our actions.
Again fine, but refer to above.

Quote:
The only man who was not born with this sin-nature was the Lord Jesus Christ, because He was begotten of God and born of a virgin. His blood was not Adam's blood, but God's blood. He came to this earth as God in the flesh to pay the price for our sins by the shedding of His blood and His death on Calvary. He was also was buried, and then rose again from the dead and applied His blood in Heaven for our justification. He can and will now save all who come to Him in faith. The Bible says "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13). Jesus paid for our sins for us to save us. God's justice had to be satisfied. The only thing that could satisfy Him was either the guilty paying what they owed(eternal death in Hellfire for sinning against Him, an eternal God of infinite benevolence), or someone paying the penalty of death and paying for the sins of the guilty with the price of their sinless and perfect blood. The only One Who was perfect enough to do this was Jesus Christ, God Himself in human form. Jesus Christ, God the Son, paid the price for our sins because of the love He had towards mankind. God hates sin, and will not by any means justify it or let it go unpaid for, but Jesus Christ took the penalty for our sins and paid for our sins for us in full by His blood. None of us can just "stop sinning" as long as we live in these sinful bodies of flesh, but once we get saved by trusting Christ as our Saviour, He can help us to live for Him and be holy before God. We can't save ourselves, only Jesus can save us, and He does that whenever we believe upon Him as our Saviour.
Again, refer to the above; sorry if this is tiring but the interpretations are aswell.

I do have one objection to the last interpretation:

If Jesus was God in the flesh, how could he at the same time be both that and the son of God?

If either were true, it would negate any reasoning for God to have sent down or have birthed Jesus Christ if all he was purposed to do was die for our sins.

That makes no correlation when God himself has no tolerance for any sin whatsoever and will banish souls to eternal damnation for not repenting; why would he then contradict that by trying to save the ones he does not have any tolerance for at all?

That is seen through him sending or having birthed Jesus.

Quote:
Unlike many people out there, I am one who takes the account of Creation in Genesis literally. I believe that God created the heavens and the earth in six literal days.
Ahah, well, there goes any reputation/respect you'll have in here for debating.

I also believe one who is giving a interpretation of a books of religion should completely stress that this is an interpretation and not "what is". Your skipping the entire premise and interpretting as well as completely pre-suposing the entire validity by the tense in which you're talking.

Last edited by McDevy; 06-27-2008 at 04:53 PM.
 

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