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northwest
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#41
11-29-2006
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Originally Posted by Darth Hulk View Post
I'm still on the fence about whether or not hope is a benefit or detriment, but in either case it can be obtained in other ways. The effect from religion is only bigger because there are so many people that believe in it. My best friend lost his father at the age of 17 to a heart attack. He is allegedly Catholic but only by family association. I, along with his then girlfriend and family, helped him get through it just by being with him every second I could. It only took about a week for him to be able to function normally again, albeit with a great deal of pain, but life goes on in those situations. It's up to those not as greatly effected by those tragedies to show that to the people who are.


TMNT
of course people can get over things and have 'hope' without religion. some can't though, and can only turn to 'God'.

trust me. I understand what you're saying with organized religions having negative effects on society. but you just asked a question about any benefits, and I think if someone did research on religion giving hope, it would come back with positive results.
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#42
11-29-2006
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Originally Posted by northwest View Post
of course people can get over things and have 'hope' without religion. some can't though, and can only turn to 'God'.

trust me. I understand what you're saying with organized religions having negative effects on society. but you just asked a question about any benefits, and I think if someone did research on religion giving hope, it would come back with positive results.
I'm not saying religion gives hope, I am just saying it can be obtained through alternate, less damaging means. Thus, it is not something that I would consider when presented with an argument in favor of keeping organized religion. The fact that some people, for whatever reason, need "God" to get over a tragedy, or have a reason to keep living is not very very strong support. To reference the drug analogy again, there are countless people who can't get through a day without shooting something, snorting something, or smoking something. That is a crutch, it is not a beneficial part of their life. The only way someone would be able to depend on God for support and/or hope is through a prolonged period of faith during which countless harmful ideas may or may not have filtered into the very root of his or her thinking. I am fairly confident that a simple support group or a friend would easily take the place of providing hope or support in times of pain.


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#43
11-29-2006
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well by me accepting Jesus into my heart I will have an eternal life in heaven when im dead
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#44
11-29-2006
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well by me accepting Jesus into my heart I will have an eternal life in heaven when im dead
That only works for your specific religion, does that mean that we should do away with the others and just keep yours?


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#45
11-30-2006
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That only works for your specific religion, does that mean that we should do away with the others and just keep yours?


TMNT
Haha...


Yep!

That would make my job MUCH easier! (Less people to convert.)


Seriously, though...this question, after reading that response, is way too broad. You're going to have to start going from religion to religion and address each and every one individually instead of using the broad sweep of the "R" word...because there's no way that you can "rid the world" of an idea (or 2 or 3...or however many religions exist) of tradition that's been going for this long. Nor can you make a logical argument against ALL religion when each one has different specifications. Different specs = Different Beliefs = Different Benefits. Be it Judaism, Islam, or Christianity...or many of the Eastern religions...those traditions have been carrying on for hundreds of years. (I'm not really too educated on any others, though.)

If nothing else...the benefit is routine. Security. Hope. Comfort. Some of them...physical and mental peace. It's about the ability to depend on an institution that has existed for more than 3 generations...whether or not you think that is justified makes no difference. AND Whether or not you consider that to be unique...the fact that these ideologies and routines have superceded all others in age is what gives them so much weight, now-a-days...not to mention their effectiveness at achieving those ends. (Again...reguardless of your position on said effectiveness.)

Let me ask you this...which building is more attractive to you? The brand new, 200 story skyscraper that that's being built in downtown Chicago...or the centuries-old-Vatican? Now what about the still-standing temples over in India, or the mosques in Iran? Now...based on world-wide belief...which of those buildings do you think will get rennovated or tore down first?

Nobody here is denying your point, Hulk...but such a broad sweep of the word "religion" doesn't really tend to convince anyone, nor does this lead to much fruitful discussion when you start replying with religion-specific questions (after you've been using such a wide range of arguments). Benefits may not be unique...but nobody really has to justify unique benefits to you...cause it's the status quo.

You need to unjustify religion in the people's eyes to keep them from supporting what you consider to be "dated" habits...and nitpicking at "unique benefits" is a poor approach to do it from.

They've been here for a lot longer than you have...so the burden of proof is in your court.

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Last edited by Rebal771; 11-30-2006 at 11:20 AM.
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#46
11-30-2006
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Originally Posted by Rebal View Post
Haha...


Yep!

That would make my job MUCH easier! (Less people to convert.)


Seriously, though...this question, after reading that response, is way too broad. You're going to have to start going from religion to religion and address each and every one individually instead of using the broad sweep of the "R" word...because there's no way that you can "rid the world" of an idea (or 2 or 3...or however many religions exist) of tradition that's been going for this long. Nor can you make a logical argument against ALL religion when each one has different specifications. Different specs = Different Beliefs = Different Benefits. Be it Judaism, Islam, or Christianity...or many of the Eastern religions...those traditions have been carrying on for hundreds of years. (I'm not really too educated on any others, though.)

If nothing else...the benefit is routine. Security. Hope. Comfort. Some of them...physical and mental peace. It's about the ability to depend on an institution that has existed for more than 3 generations...whether or not you think that is justified makes no difference. AND Whether or not you consider that to be unique...the fact that these ideologies and routines have superceded all others in age is what gives them so much weight, now-a-days...not to mention their effectiveness at achieving those ends. (Again...reguardless of your position on said effectiveness.)

Let me ask you this...which building is more attractive to you? The brand new, 200 story skyscraper that that's being built in downtown Chicago...or the centuries-old-Vatican? Now what about the still-standing temples over in India, or the mosques in Iran? Now...based on world-wide belief...which of those buildings do you think will get rennovated or tore down first?

Nobody here is denying your point, Hulk...but such a broad sweep of the word "religion" doesn't really tend to convince anyone, nor does this lead to much fruitful discussion when you start replying with religion-specific questions (after you've been using such a wide range of arguments). Benefits may not be unique...but nobody really has to justify unique benefits to you...cause it's the status quo.

You need to unjustify religion in the people's eyes to keep them from supporting what you consider to be "dated" habits...and nitpicking at "unique benefits" is a poor approach to do it from.

They've been here for a lot longer than you have...so the burden of proof is in your court.
I'll answer this in more depth when I get a chance, cause I'm late for class as it is, but when I say unique, I mean benefits unique to religion. They can be any religion, but I'd like to know that they can't be obtained in a way not involving religion before I deem it a worthy benefit.


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#47
11-30-2006
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can other alternatives give hope to people that will convince them that after they die, they will be somewhere better?

different levels of hope make all the difference....
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#48
11-30-2006
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Originally Posted by northwest View Post
can other alternatives give hope to people that will convince them that after they die, they will be somewhere better?

different levels of hope make all the difference....
When you're not worried about making it into an exclusive club in the afterlife, you're able to focus on the here and now and enjoy yourself.
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#49
11-30-2006
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Originally Posted by northwest View Post
can other alternatives give hope to people that will convince them that after they die, they will be somewhere better?

different levels of hope make all the difference....
The message is in the right place, but the method of sending the message is twisted and amounts to fear mongering in most cases. I'll respond more later if I feel like it.


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