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Rhis
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#11
05-07-2014
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i think its too general to say "some people are definitely ignorant." the projection idea comes from us trying to understand what context and situations (largely cultural) make these people seem ignorant in the first place.



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#12
05-07-2014
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The problem with looking at a situation you are so closely involved with (in time, space, and mental engagement) is that your unconscious is constantly defending against change. "You are being lied to, by yourself."

Projection isn't necessarily about a characteristic, but rather a certain way of dealing with feelings. Dudes are "having a good old time" while you're not, for whatever reason, and the instinct is to distance yourself from them, which seems to be manifesting in this case as projection.


In any case, it's a bit of a chicken/egg issue, and the only way out is through careful self-reflection and deliberate action. I.e., those dudes clearly don't need others' approval to do what they want and enjoy themselves. Maybe on some level, you feel like you need permission to act, probably not consciously, but if you look at your past actions through this lens they may make sense--nobody has seen more of your life than you yourself, so you tell me. Humility is important, but that can become pathological when it's at the cost of fomenting resentment for others who you don't think have it, which can further drive you inward.


Notes from Underground is about

Quote:
a man who imagines himself an acutely conscious mouse, in a world of men who never bother with self-reflection, who seem all the happier, more capable because of it. And he'll think about these happy, stupid men, and all the misery that their happiness has caused him:

Quote:
For forty years together it will remember its injury down to the smallest, most ignominious details, and every time will add, of itself, details still more ignominious, spitefully teasing and tormenting itself with its own imagination. It will itself be ashamed of its imaginings, but yet it will recall it all, it will go over and over every detail, it will invent unheard of things against itself, pretending that those things might happen, and will forgive nothing.
But why do it to yourself? Why stay underground and... fester in spite?

Quote:
But it is just in that cold, abominable half despair... in that hell of unsatisfied desires turned inward... that the savour of that strange enjoyment of which I have spoken lies.
Enjoyment? Better to consider it validation: in the suffering, in being the mouse, in being Underground is an identity, an individualism, a defining of the problem as you vs. them. You are not-them, and so you are better.

This is narcissism; sometimes despair is the only pleasure you have.

The lesser read Part 2 describes his relationship with a prostitute. He more than insults her; like a psychic he astutely identifies her inner dreams and external hardships, and then predicts the misery that is her future. He later says he did it to have power over her, which is only partly true. He does it because he wants her to see him as knowing. The power over her was to get her to see him the way he wanted to be seen.

But she has a good soul, she's a woman, and she's a prostitute: she's three times more perceptive than he is. He knows she'll eventually be able to see right through him-- to see him as he really is-- not even as a bad person, just not as he wants to be seen. This is the worst thing that can happen. To preempt this, he degrades her: to cause her to leave.

And of course, she does.

One of the best depictions of narcissism, ever. Study it.
If people perceive you as arrogant, they may be projecting, it's hard to say, and this is why close study of art, specifically literature, is pretty important, because it's difficult/impossible to look at your own situation with the distance required for bootstrapping change.

Quote:
Of course stories may have an intended meaning, but a well written story allows you to ask not just "what does the story mean?" but "why do I think that this is what the story means?" As in The Second Story Of Echo And Narcissus: "The story is the pool... what do you see in it? It's a reflection and a projection..."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Klima View Post
Humility and confidence must/can go hand in hand and I'm not sure I even see them as being complete opposites, but surely they are, right?
A confident person does not fear his own failures. An arrogant person does not accept his own failures. Therefore, both humility and confidence are important. Confidence without humility is Arrogance. Humility without confidence is self-deprecation.

Projection or not, some people simply are arrogant. Recognizing this doesn't necessary indicate that you are projecting your feelings onto another person, even if you are arrogant yourself (knowingly or unknowingly). Does the idea of other people viewing you as arrogant scare you? Or do you think it's possible that you in fact are arrogant? If so, the projecting theory has been proven wrong in this case hasn't it?
Language games and semantics won't help you here.
Spoiler!

Last edited by davobrosia; 05-07-2014 at 11:38 AM.
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#13
05-07-2014
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Quote:
. He knows she'll eventually be able to see right through him-- to see him as he really is-- not even as a bad person, just not as he wants to be seen. This is the worst thing that can happen. To preempt this, he degrades her: to cause her to leave.
I once realized I did this and it was so eye opening, still struggle with it a ton.
I know this isnt super relevant but i like the movie Revolver because it at least forces you to reflect on yourself.


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#14
05-07-2014
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looks like i need to read notes from the underground
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#15
05-07-2014
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Quote:
If you doubt this, consider the sullen engineering student at a party, "I'm not like these superficial sorority girls with perfect smiles and condomless sex" who then perceives great happiness in these people.
Single most useful thing said on the matter thus far.


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#16
05-09-2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nv1ncible View Post
Anyway, I'm kind of at a crossroads, because more and more lately I feel like I am not that confident of a person. In some cases I'm ok with that. For example, it seems like the more I try to learn about something of a complex nature (example might be theories of economics), the less I actually know, and strangely I actually take some comfort in that. I'm much more likely now to concede that I do NOT know something rather than trying to convince others that I do.
I'm not sure where you're getting a confidence problem from this other than just transitioning from a knowledge perspective to a wisdom perspective in life. You eventually realize you can't know it all, but that you can hold out to understand what you can hope to know.

Quote:
Yet, I think it's more apparent to me now that I never actually was confident. I mean, sure, there were things that I was good at, and with that came some amount of confidence.
Quote:
You know how there are those people that just kind of always think they have an answer for everything? I'm talking about pretty ignorant people that just happen to have a pretty strong confidence that what they believe is actually right, rather than saying "Hmm, I guess I'm not sure" or "I haven't really given it much thought".
Again, I just think this goes to growing up. People either remain stubborn to thinking and behaving in particular ways, or they take some time to critically reflect on what they think/do, why they do, and how they reached the conclusion those were the best ways to think about or do something.

Quote:
Well, I see a lot of people around me, young guys my age, that carry around this kind of confidence, and for me, it's really hard to not interpret it as arrogance. And of course I see that as a negative characteristic, but in terms of relationships and women, it seems to be interpreted the exact opposite: a positive characteristic. The fact that I find very little humility in these guys doesn't change the fact that they're the ones who have no issues making friends, banging girls, and generally having a good old time.
Some guys are going to put on a certain confidence for girls they wouldn't ordinarily do in other situations. Maybe you're interpreting it as a battle for superiority for who gets to court whom, but it's not really arrogant to assert confidence (even false) when trying to use it as an attractive characteristic (and of course, that's up to each individual woman to consider it so or not).

Quote:
So I guess my question is, what do you guys think about confidence? And what do you think about humility? Are they mutually exclusive? Is confidence important? Is humility?
They're not mutually exclusive, and they're both equally important as far as not being a dickhead in life. Nobody enjoys eating a humble pie after realizing they didn't handle something in the best way, but most people will either brush it off ("I knew what I was doing") or learn to grow from it ("I now understand there were better ways to handle that").

This seemed to spiral quickly into a girl issue problem. If so, and based on how I'm reading this, just make sure to not carry around the "what does she see in him?" attitude in regards to the whole being a cocky asshole thing. Some girls like it, and they're free to date whatever dickheads they want to. Be confident in knowing that a girl will like you for who you are but humble and self-cognizant enough to realize not everyone will nor should they.
 

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