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Cursed Lemon
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#81
02-17-2014
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Who said there wasn't? You think my thought experiment nullifies normal psychology?


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#82
02-17-2014
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wait. so u think that if 'u' were just forever a brain in a vat, that organ, only ever introduced to the colors red and green, that in this situation 'u' would still have a spatial understanding of yourself? (you'd have a conscious self?)
u think that's what (valid) "normal psychology" says about the matter?
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Here's the problem - I am not a means to the end of rape culture, I am the end. I am literally the termination of this whole ordeal.
here's the problem
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#83
02-17-2014
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I have absolutely no idea.


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#84
02-17-2014
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okay. if your whole point was to say that cs. is an emergent phenomenon (that to answer either left or right is wrong) and if that's as far as you wanted to take your thread then i apologize for taking it so far off topic with other questions
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Originally Posted by Cursed Lemon View Post
Here's the problem - I am not a means to the end of rape culture, I am the end. I am literally the termination of this whole ordeal.
here's the problem

Last edited by PM; 02-17-2014 at 08:26 PM.
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#85
02-17-2014
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...Really.

It took that ONE question for you to suddenly understand everything I was trying to convey?

And more specifically, it's not that answering left or right is wrong, it's to assume that the brain harbors an immaterial consciousness that could be likened to a "soul" is wrong in the first place.


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#86
02-17-2014
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that's not what happened. i wanted to get at other things (i posed other questions obliquely and sometimes directly related to the one at hand) and you demonstrated an outright refusal to let these have any respectable place in your thread. it's not that i'm just now 'suddenly understanding' everything you were trying to convey (i already had, your message was simplistic, (you're a physicalist), and this thread relied on the pretense of trickery itself to claim it posed a "thought experiment" in the first place; the only thing tricky about it was that it was a confusion of language, like i've pointed out). rather, what i'm doing is giving up on trying to spark any further discussion itt, long after i should have.
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Originally Posted by Cursed Lemon View Post
Here's the problem - I am not a means to the end of rape culture, I am the end. I am literally the termination of this whole ordeal.
here's the problem

Last edited by PM; 02-17-2014 at 08:40 PM.
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#87
02-17-2014
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You don't just try to segue into an almost completely different discussion when things aren't cleared up on the initial thread topic, it doesn't really work like that, PM. I can talk about other stuff but not at the expense of the subject that I'm trying to discuss by creating the damn thread.

No, I've never heard of that specific phrase.


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#88
02-18-2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PM View Post
y not just be tactical n say someat like 'her or his'
Because it's wordy and silly. Convention has me using their in the singular, which I don't particularly like. Other languages have this down, but I'm glad we don't have the whole 'all words have genders' nonsense.
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it cannot be tied to any location w/o there already being a cultural or linguistic community which ascribes it to some such location
i.e. there's not an objectively pinpointable spot in the brain that is conscious you
I'm not talking cultural here. I'm talking more "We disable activity here, here, and here and consciousness seems to not be happening." Something something giant magnets something.
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if we think of consciousness as a system (as system cs.), then we could say that the "you" cl is really wanting to get at in the op is different from the "conscious you" he's at the same time wanting to equate it with. the "you" he's wanting to get at, so i've been assured, is not the "self". i'd say it's a collection of more than the system cs., however, and includes also the systems pcs. and ucs. (given that bodily movements arise from the system pcs., meaning that someone's movements themselves are mostly pre- or less-than-conscious).
I feel like movement goes to most of the levels. You're perfectly capable of moving around unconsciously, able to move about in a more consciously directed way, which would be the norm, and in a bit of a stronger conscious way where you attempt to focus on all the movements. I try to stay in the last one as often as I can, for silly personal reasons. Naturally it's still quite heavily subconscious as far as coordination and the like goes. Of course, that's all besides the point. It also falls somewhat comfortably into the realm of things we can actually test these days, which is what I find exciting.
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marx once said something like 'consciousness is the direct efflux of material behavior'. this means that consciousness as an activity is inseparable from the concept of habitus (structured dispositions; default ways and modes of existing; already-made patterns of action, greased grooves of behavior), to which i've devoted a thread.
This doesn't really apply to consciousness as I'm using it. I'm concerned more with the awareness itself, and not what you are aware of. It's a much more difficult question to work with. It's not clear to me how to go about that, so the broader consciousness acts as a reasonable proxy.

Quote:
another q to think about here is what exactly is the "you" we're recognizing in another person when we say to them, hey "you"?
and w/r/t the original question: what half would be "you" for an interlocutor? (answer: both parts are not you)



Quote:
>getting even closer to 2015
>still assuming science can answer a question that's really only a problem w language itself
I disagree pretty strongly here. The language issue, as far as I'm concerned, is a pretty superficial part of the problem. It's pretty certain that I exist as a conscious entity, and also that I am not aware of being you.

What I described as a possibility to see in my lifetime is either identifying a set of structures, or possible a set of sets of possible structures which can be identified as necessary for this whole consciousness thing. Alternatively, simulating enough of the brain in a not-the-brain format that we manage to get something that seems to be self-aware.

Quote:
>mind/body dualism
>another scientific optimist entertaining rationalism

this is a good point but you're forgetting about the body, etc. keep in mind your brain is a part of your larger body, and that your body is what's seen by other people which you imaginatively apprehend as existing, etc. keep in mind your body seems to have its own language-- keep in mind there is no natural way to swim, or walk, or eat, etc., that these things are 'learned' or picked up on and corrected, reinforced, disciplined until 'natural'.

you guys keep talking about consciousness (system cs.) as "you" as "your brain"; but that's exactly where the problem lies, and as long as you're speaking in these terms your answers are only going to be, e.g., "can't wait til science answers what part of the brain "you" are for good."
Meh, for the questions I'm talking about, other people aren't important. There's tons of interesting stuff there, for sure, and I do find it pretty fascinating. The teleportation problem is probably where the difference is most apparent. From anyone else's perspective, you're obviously the same person. But really, we only care about things from the point of view of your continued conscious self.

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Originally Posted by Cursed Lemon View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by PM View Post
but you don't seem to want to ask anything like 'to what extent could consciousness even exist' without e.g. the rest of the body
Until you actually give this statement some meaning/relevance to the topic at hand, then yeah, I'm just going to go ahead and pretend you meant something far more entertaining.

Or are you (predictably) completely ignoring the fact that my original proposition split the body symmetrically down the center FOR A REASON.
Seems to me like the issue PM's having here lies in the difference between the contents of the consciousness and consciousness itself being a thing.

English conflates way too much. Good for art, less good for science. If it weren't just so hard to get people to use something better, I'd be all for it. But here I am, not using metric, so we're not doing that any time soon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cursed Lemon View Post
...Really.

It took that ONE question for you to suddenly understand everything I was trying to convey?

And more specifically, it's not that answering left or right is wrong, it's to assume that the brain harbors an immaterial consciousness that could be likened to a "soul" is wrong in the first place.
I must admit I'm a bit guilty of this. While I'm totally down with consciousness being an emergent phenomenon, the whole being conscious/selfaware/thinking or what have you, is something I'm just going to have to call magic for now.

The only thing I find more ridiculous than the universe existing at all is that there are conscious entities in it. This whole issue would be so much simpler if we were just philosophical zombies. The impossibility of disproving that notion, coupled with the contradiction of the experience of the self is enough to get me to cast my vote for the absurd.
Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.
Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm the rest of his life.

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#89
02-18-2014
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i didnt read all this shit. I am not singular though, so I suppose different parts of me would end up on different sides. To define my consciousness as singular is far to simple an explanation of what goes on up in my old ticker-tocker dinker-donker.
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Edit: No penises. Not even clipart versions.
- Nv1




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#90
02-19-2014
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Have read about 2/5 of this thread. Is it all pretty much playing fast and loose with equivocation, namedropping ancient people and concepts from Phil. of Mind 301 taught by someone with an obviously analytic school slant, circlejerking about language games and attributing ontological import to jargon while simultaneously misusing it, trying to bracket out the Real conditions of a Thing, and regurgitating old QualiaSoup and Thunderf00t videos to knock down all those nasty strawdualists plaguing the site on the one side, with PM trying to probably say some interesting things but doing so in a way that makes nobody give a shit what he's saying on the other, or should I bother with the rest? Kidding, I read the whole thing.

Just going to blindly leave a couple links here that google gave me when I searched for what Levi Bryant has to say on this, because he has a lot of interesting things to say in general http://larvalsubjects.wordpress.com/...y-of-the-body/ https://larvalsubjects.wordpress.com...f-information/

it may or may not apply but maybe it's at least interesting.
Spoiler!

Last edited by davobrosia; 02-19-2014 at 03:31 PM.
 

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