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#41
02-17-2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cursed Lemon View Post

Leading us to where we are now, and my unwillingness to continue this conversation until you realize that

THE POINT OF THE THREAD IS TO DEMONSTRATE THAT AN IMMATERIAL CONSCIOUSNESS, A "SELF-SEEING SELF", IS A STEAMING LOAD OF HORSECRAP THAT CAN BE DEBUNKED BY A SIMPLE THOUGHT EXPERIMENT - IT'S TELLING DUALISTS TO STOP BEING HOLISTIC RETARDS AND THAT REDUCTIONISM ISN'T A DIRTY WORD.
"A simple deconstruction of consciousness - question
If you split the brain and body vertically down the center, which side do "you" end up on?"

okay


funnily, i don't think a kantian, say, (someone who rigorously worked out an idea of a self-seeing self that is in other words consciousness), or any less of a dualist, would be bothered in the slightest by your very simple thought experiment; but i'm not going to go into why, just judging by how fruitful i think it would be, given that (^) sorta response
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Originally Posted by Cursed Lemon View Post
Here's the problem - I am not a means to the end of rape culture, I am the end. I am literally the termination of this whole ordeal.
here's the problem

Last edited by PM; 02-17-2014 at 01:36 PM.
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#42
02-17-2014
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Okay? Well I guess that just leaves the Restivus, then?


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#43
02-17-2014
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not gna bother with replying to that whole mess, but let me just make clear that when i posted
Quote:
Originally Posted by PM View Post
when you say "you", do you mean the "me" that thinks or that assumes it's "me" that does the thinking? (since you're talking about "consciousness", i'm assuming this is what you meant). or did you mean something else, like "my" personality or my "self", etc.?
originally, my point was to get at what exactly you are wanting to "deconstruct" with this language of splitting "you" down the center, vertically. so at some point i raised the question of whether splitting the body horizontally would make any difference (so as to get a sense for how you're thinking about the problem more generally, given ur tiny little 120 char twitter baby responses to other posts itt).

i was wanting to see how you're reasoning about all of this more carefully (i.e. to see your bare assumptions, and you've since made them clear but only while refusing to challenge them); but it turns out you were all along only wanting to say with your simple question that "consciousness/you is in your brain but not really actually in there, like on some side, since it's an emergent phenomenon."

the reason why this turned sour is bc your question is terrible (the answer you were wanting to get at by posing the question was arrived at by this time already) and i was trying to be generous through providing other, more fruitful (since not the same) things to think about. you want no part in thinking about them since they're really meant to challenge your assumptions, which is really what you want no part in (justifiably so, being a physicalist and all).


jsuk, i'm not a dualist or kantian, i'm just saying that ur argument against a dualistic kind of reasoning (this thought experiment) is total shit. i'm not saying i'm against the spirit (the physicalist/materialist thrust) of the argument, i'm saying rather that ur concrete thought experiment as it's laid out here is total shit.
+ ur inability to entertain my thought experiments as responses is telling
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Originally Posted by Cursed Lemon View Post
Here's the problem - I am not a means to the end of rape culture, I am the end. I am literally the termination of this whole ordeal.
here's the problem

Last edited by PM; 02-17-2014 at 02:00 PM.
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#44
02-17-2014
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i think a good aim session of socratic questioning would show that what's really at issue here is you're a physicalist refusing to engage with what i'm really doing (seeing it as totally irrelevant, say), which is challenging you on how you justify deferring to a physicalist answer to this question. but in lieu of having a client,


when i say "i exist", don't i mean that wherever my left hand exists, whatever space is occupied by my left hand, i exist as well? or do you have a different conception of this?
you would grant that when i say "i exist" i am referring to an idea (an idea i have of myself); what is this idea and what is this thinker in the context of your thought experiment? (are they distinct? collapsed? is one or another irrelevant?)

your experiment deals w consciousness but i'm still unclear on what you mean by consciousness as being "you" and on how your experiment is supposed to show that consciousness (you~yness) is an emergent phenomenon-- your answer, i'm guessing, would also be just that "you" are dead (and so, in your slang, non-emergent, or incapable of emerging again)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cursed Lemon View Post
Here's the problem - I am not a means to the end of rape culture, I am the end. I am literally the termination of this whole ordeal.
here's the problem

Last edited by PM; 02-17-2014 at 02:17 PM.
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#45
02-17-2014
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You say my question is terrible and yet you give absolutely no explanation as to why.

You have not provided any clear challenge to physicalism because the actual pillars of physicalism have not even been brought up yet in this thread. What question did you ask that I'm supposed to respond to on that topic?

Am I supposed to break down the initial question into bite-sized pieces so that you understand what I'm attempting to get across? You're acting like I have to hold your hand and slowly walk you through the inanely basic principles of mind philosophy.

1. Monists think that the consciousness is a reducible result of physical brain activity.

2. Dualists think the consciousness is a magic non-physical substance that just sits in the brain for no reason.

3. Regardless of how the consciousness systemically rises - whether it is miraculously implanted into our heads at birth or whether the physical brain mystically creates a non-physical entity - the consciousness seems to be located in the brain.

4. Non-physical things cannot be "cut in half" like physical things - even if you could theoretically divide a consciousness, you can't do so with a KNIFE, so we assume that there are not going to be two separate non-physical consciousnesses that end up in either half of the brain.

5. Consciousnesses are not some free-floating thing we find in nature just riding the wind like dandelion seeds - they are ALWAYS tied to something physical.

6. We suppose that the brain is vertically separated down its exact center, as well as the rest of the symmetric body to cover any arguments that might complicate things by arguing that consciousness borrows majorly from sense perception and relative ability to separate the "self" from the external world.

7. Since dualists think that the consciousness is an immaterial thing, it has to go SOMEWHERE.

8. The ultimate result is that you cannot substantiate an immaterial consciousness under these conditions without getting Occam-Razor'd to high heaven.


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#46
02-17-2014
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i understand the question, i've already answered it, it's a linguistic trick that can be worked out. your question isn't even asking anything about consciousness unless you're already assuming something like consciousness is an emergent phenomenon (an activity associated with the goings-on of your living brain). no wonder your thought experiment works out in favor of your sought-after answer.

i'm not challenging physicalism i'm challenging why you feel justified in deferring to the authority of this ism on the one hand while declaring dualism to be so simply wrong about the age old question of "whence consciousness" on the other. i'm challenging why you're claiming it's good to have some no bullshit physicalist understanding of consciousness (as 'an emergent phenomenon') and think it's sufficient to offer up such a simple deconstructive thought experiment and a bunch of "i'm a physicalist"s as your proof/rationale for not yourself needing to check your own assumptions (i.e. what makes me so sure of this physicalist skepticism; why can't i consider such a thing as a psychical reality (knowable) as distinct from a material reality (unknowable), and why can't i think about my own original question in these new terms? (etc.)) or like seriously consider any of the questions i was raising for longer than one millisecond. old guy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cursed Lemon View Post
Here's the problem - I am not a means to the end of rape culture, I am the end. I am literally the termination of this whole ordeal.
here's the problem

Last edited by PM; 02-17-2014 at 05:07 PM.
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#47
02-17-2014
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First of all, I'm sorry, are you going to go hunt down Frank Jackson and lambaste him for proposing Mary's Room under the pretext of supporting to existence of qualia? How dare he conceive of a thought experiment where he already agrees with one particular side. Or are you just vehemently against the simplification of any argument for sake of convenience, purely on principle? You must REALLY hate analogies.

Secondly, here's a better question; why are you complaining about my solid confidence in physicalism while at the same time adamantly avoiding talking about the validity of said physicalism? You're asking me why it's "good" to push the side that I think stands most solidly on its own logic? That's kind of a weird question to ask someone. Of-fucking-course the question applies only to dualists, that doesn't mean I'm being a partisan hack about it like you're suggesting.

Saying "I'm a physicalist" is not my argument, it is my attempt to make you - specifically YOU, Mister PM - understand the context from which I'm speaking.

I'm not going to get into the actual subject of physicalism if you're "not challenging it". If you actually have questions related to the ORIGINAL POST, then by all means, enumerate them in a fashion that doesn't require me to decrypt your intentions in retrospect.


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Last edited by Cursed Lemon; 02-17-2014 at 05:54 PM.
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#48
02-17-2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cursed Lemon View Post
First of all, I'm sorry, are you going to go hunt down Frank Jackson and lambaste him for proposing Mary's Room under the pretext of supporting to existence of qualia? How dare he conceive of a thought experiment where he already agrees with one particular side.
no, i'm saying instead that your experiment is simply a linguistic trick, and that's why it seems to work with your particular understanding of physicalism, and that's why you're evoking it. you've said as much.
Quote:
Secondly, here's a better question; why are you complaining about my solid confidence in physicalism while at the same time adamantly avoiding talking about the validity of said physicalism? You're asking me why it's "good" to push the side that I think stands most solidly on its own logic? That's kind of a weird question to ask someone. Of-fucking-course the question applies only to dualists, that doesn't mean I'm being a partisan hack about it like you're suggesting.
>validity
>stands most solidly on its own logic
>applies only to dualists

nope on all three.
if your rationale for putting so much stock in physicalism is that you think it's valid then there's nothing to debate, clearly. of course, you've said as much yourself.

"stands most solidly on its own logic"-- saying something stands solidly on its own logic means nothing except that it's valid.

"applies only to dualists"-- wat

Quote:
Saying "I'm a physicalist" is not my argument, it is my attempt to make you - specifically YOU, Mister PM - understand the context from which I'm speaking.

I'm not going to get into the actual subject of physicalism if you're "not challenging it". If you actually have questions related to the ORIGINAL POST, then by all means, enumerate them in a fashion that doesn't require me to decrypt your intentions in retrospect.
why don't you look at my recent posts and respond to them
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cursed Lemon View Post
Here's the problem - I am not a means to the end of rape culture, I am the end. I am literally the termination of this whole ordeal.
here's the problem
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#49
02-17-2014
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my consciousness is in my dick and since my dick goes a little to the left i would say the left side would hold more of my personality whereas my right side would probably have a little less of my personality.

source: just got a boner so i could make sure it goes left
Oh, you.
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#50
02-17-2014
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No.

PM.

This thread is about how a dualist reconciles the physical division of the brain.

Nothing more.

That is all I want to talk about.


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