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Nv1ncible
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#81
05-01-2014
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Originally Posted by davobrosia View Post
Holy shit is this thread actually going places? Will edit in responses as I can today.
Is it? Please let me know when it arrives somewhere...
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#82
05-01-2014
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Spoiler!
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#83
05-01-2014
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davo's posts a few pages back kinda reminded me of how I responded to this Norwegian stoner dude in Amsterdam blaming the bilderberg group and iluminati for everything. I kinda took their existence for fact and then still asked him if those 'organizations' were to blame for the situation he was angry about. -> came down to me saying the thing about it ultimately coming down to the (random) actions of individuals forming our 'systems', what's valued in them and thus 'normalized behaviors', not some 'institution' that's in control.
not sure if that hits home to what davo was saying but to me it sounded similar, had a long day.
might read up on this thread when I have time, dont wanna just blurp some random thoughts.


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#84
05-01-2014
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zyphex, seems like you only asked "does the corporation still exist without the individual?" because you already had the answer handy: "no"; you didn't even consider my response, you just responded to it with your planned out "no, corporation does not exist without individuals (by definition)". . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by davobrosia View Post

Like this guy, I take a somewhat Foucauldian stance--there are so many background assumptions and facts packed in when we talk about making "free" choices, and not all of them are unwelcome.



I think this is a fine stance, not wanting to anthropomorphize concepts, and I can see how doing so undermines an argument that the system is inherently of a different status and irreducible to its constituent parts. However, when I say things like "the system wants," I mean it as a shorthand for "the generalized tendency/attitude of the sociopolitical/cultural landscape," you know?
this generalized tendency/attitude of the sociopolitical/cultural landscape "suggests" certain behavior, or in other words make visible certain affordances, good and bad (faces) for the embodied biopsychosocial human beings. . . then pre-intellectually man recognizes certain possibilites and not others in the "given" sociopolitical/cultural landscape that is his heavily psychically invested-in biological and social surroundings. i'm curious when the individual as such arrives (wants) in your picture?
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Originally Posted by Cursed Lemon View Post
Here's the problem - I am not a means to the end of rape culture, I am the end. I am literally the termination of this whole ordeal.
here's the problem

Last edited by PM; 05-01-2014 at 08:03 AM.
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#85
05-01-2014
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Originally Posted by PM View Post
i don't know what you mean by /cultural landscape

when i say "the corporation wants", i mean the corporate form—that very specific assemblage of power itself, which situates actors within a network (people or automata) and suggests certain grooves of action/want which aren't disruptive but smooth—functions according to its directive, which is to maximize profit
More accurate and precise longhand for 'Murica, basically. That's what I mean by "the System" (big S, in a somewhat Derridean sense of the superstructure of impossibly complex interlocking systems which ultimately undermines itself yet perseveres, in opposition to the Other, big O, in the Lacanian sense). Other systems and networks get other names, like the Corporation (big C).

Quote:
Originally Posted by PM View Post
this generalized tendency/attitude of the sociopolitical/cultural landscape "suggests" certain behavior, or in other words make visible certain affordances, good and bad (faces) for the embodied biopsychosocial human beings. . . then pre-intellectually man recognizes certain possibilites and not others in the "given" sociopolitical/cultural landscape that is his heavily psychically invested-in biological and social surroundings. i'm curious when the individual as such arrives (wants) in your picture?
When he is given a name and space within the system by the system. I take a pretty standard Althusserian/Foucauldian position here.

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Originally Posted by zyphex View Post
Preference is an ordinal, rather than a cardinal relation (I can't say "apples give me 6 happiness-points/utils and oranges give me 4"; preferring is ordering, not some type of numerical calculation of happiness-potentials/utils or what have you.

You see 2 things x and y, and you have to choose one of them. (x and y can be two goods, two opportunities, anything you have to choose between). You pick the one you prefer (this is pretty much a tautology); you prefer the one you like better, the one that you think would make you most satisfied.

But I mean, things aren't even that formal in reality; I just put on my slippers. Why? I wanted warm feet. I didn't stop, think about it and calculate anything. I also didn't think of all my alternatives (if I put on my slippers now, I can't pick up my book over there at the same time) because one of the things I prefer is not taking so much damn time to choose (I have time preference, i.e. I prefer to get shit done sooner than later). For those things that have relatively low costs (and I may know they have low costs from my previous experience such as with the act of "putting on slippers") and immediate benefits, it is true, there isn't much of a reasoning process. But I still put on my slippers because I preferred doing that to the alternatives of either 1) picking up my book or 2)taking the time to evaluate all of the minuscule costs and benefits associating with shoving my dumb foot in a slipper. And I definitely preferred it to not putting on my slipper at all.

People act based on wants, and use reason to try to find the means to achieve these wants.

Of course, some people reason that a way to attract Jodie Foster is to shoot Ronald Reagan, so this isn't some elevated form of reason that I speak of when talking about choosing means to fulfill ends/wants.
The gaps between "I do," "I want," and "I know" (you can do something you want to do without knowing you want it or why you want it, you can do something you know you want to do--but I'd argue there is virtually always a remainder of which you do not know consciously--Sartre opens Being and Nothingness with a good gloss of a lot of this) are filled by the unconscious, mediating the real (bodily requirements and impulses, id, etc), the symbolic (superego, background social Laws and mores, etc), and imaginary (assumed concept of identity: ego). I know this probably sounds like gibberish, but I sware to god m8...
Spoiler!

Last edited by davobrosia; 05-01-2014 at 08:13 AM.
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#86
05-01-2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davobrosia View Post
More accurate and precise longhand for 'Murica, basically. That's what I mean by "the System" (big S, in a somewhat Derridean sense of the superstructure of impossibly complex interlocking systems which ultimately undermines itself yet perseveres, in opposition to the Other, big O, in the Lacanian sense). Other systems and networks get other names, like the Corporation (big C).



When he is given a name and space within the system by the system. I take a pretty standard Althusserian/Foucauldian position here.
alright

guess i'm just trying to naively open up the question of "to what extent can we even say an individual does the wanting or acting, in any sense that would make economic theory presupposing markets arise out of individual actions valid or, natural, or, more deeply, humane or meaningful?", you know?

Quote:
I can only say I because I give myself my own time. As enormous systems of synchronisation the cultural industries, especially television, are machines to liquidate this self, of which Michel Foucault studied the techniques towards the end of his life. When tens or hundreds of millions of viewers simultaneously watch the same program live, these consciousnesses around the world internalise the same temporal objects. And if they repeat every day at the same time and highly regularly the same consumptive audiovisual behaviour because everything pushes them to, these “consciousnesses” end up becoming that of the same person, that is, of nobody. The unconscious of the herd releases a collection of drives that no longer form a desire—for a desire presupposes a singularity
more food for thought from the pdf posted just earlier today

it's horrifying to think about all the people who sleep with the TV on. . . probably lots of low-income, loud-neighborhoods sorts. . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cursed Lemon View Post
Here's the problem - I am not a means to the end of rape culture, I am the end. I am literally the termination of this whole ordeal.
here's the problem

Last edited by PM; 05-01-2014 at 08:22 AM.
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#87
05-01-2014
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Yeah, that pretty much lines up with what I'm hoping to hash out a bit in this thread.

In vulgar terms, I don't think material conditions can be bootstrapped into improving, generally, and definitely not without first bootstrapping the Self into consciousness of how it is being lied to by itself (and by itself I mean the System, because the System simultaneously is a sort of Ur-self and interpellates the individual within it).
Spoiler!

Last edited by davobrosia; 05-01-2014 at 09:32 AM.
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#88
05-01-2014
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It was a joke grim. I honestly couldn't follow this conversation but I said that somewhat cynically because usually these conversations deeply rooted in philosophical viewpoints don't progress much. But if this kind of thing gets you guys off, carry on.


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#89
05-04-2014
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"Do not demand of politics that it restore the "rights" of the individual, as philosophy has defined them. The individual is the product of power. What is needed is to 'de-individualize' by means of multiplication and displacement, diverse combinations. The group must not be the organic bond uniting hierarchized individuals, but a constant generator of de-individualization." (deleuze and guattari)



a critique of neo-freudian/lacanian psycho-analysis (itself part of "the viennese legacy", as i've ventured to point out) along the same lines:

"... The dismantling of the family structures at the end of the 19th century under the irresistible weight of Capital summoned forth an immediate reaction, whose driving force was [psycho-]analysis. Libidinal energy, freed by Freud from its reproductive function, thereby found itself checked in its substitutive formations—Oedipus and castration—which do nothing more than represent the unconscious and desire, rather than multiply the productive capacity. To go with Jacques Lacan from the father to the Name-of-the-Father, from the penis to the phallus, or from the imaginary to the symbolic, doesn't change a thing—the analysis blindly taking as its object the individual that has been shaped, fabricated, and subjugated by the great penal body, intensifying its subjugation by splitting the subject through the imposition of language—it did not free the individual, much as it professed to, from human and humanistic bondage." (sylvére lotringer)


since we've seemingly reached another impasse, perhaps further discussion could bounce off any thoughts inspired by any of this?

Last edited by PM; 05-04-2014 at 10:31 AM.
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#90
05-04-2014
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Just gonna these out the window like Jesse Pinkman, because I'm driving.

https://larvalsubjects.wordpress.com...e-a-pet-peeve/
http://larvalsubjects.wordpress.com/...eve-revisited/
http://larvalsubjects.wordpress.com/...-for-the-mill/
https://larvalsubjects.wordpress.com...ri-avec-lacan/

tldr is that late Lacan is compatible with D&G; he was seemingly aware of them and took their critiques into account.
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