Halo 2 Forum > Off-topic > Debate Forum
 
 
Display Modes Thread Tools
davobrosia
Ask Z for $50
davobrosia's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 22,593
Subtract from davobrosia's ReputationAdd to davobrosia's Reputation davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000
Send a message via AIM to davobrosia
#51
04-28-2014
Default

Like this may come down to whether or not you accept the concepts of the unconscious and Ideology as things that exist in some capacity and have impact on the world or are at least useful tools in a conceptual framework. And for many reasons I am not up to the task of selling anyone on them. Our paradigms may just be irreconcilable.
Spoiler!

Last edited by davobrosia; 04-28-2014 at 04:47 PM.
zyphex
Level 25
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA
Posts: 888
Subtract from zyphex's ReputationAdd to zyphex's Reputation zyphex IS OVER 9000 zyphex IS OVER 9000 zyphex IS OVER 9000 zyphex IS OVER 9000 zyphex IS OVER 9000 zyphex IS OVER 9000 zyphex IS OVER 9000 zyphex IS OVER 9000
Send a message via AIM to zyphex
#52
04-28-2014
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by davobrosia View Post
Like this may come down to whether or not you accept the concepts of the unconscious and Ideology as things that exist in some capacity and have impact on the world or are at least useful tools in a conceptual framework. And for many reasons I am not up to the task of selling anyone on them. Our paradigms may just be irreconcilable.
This is a possibility. I honestly do not know enough about the concepts to tell you flat out, but I am very skeptical/critical of different methodologies which would run against the methods I find important for social studies; I would need very straight reasons as to why the methodological deviations are necessary. (Just trying to be frank, not trying to sound like some demanding, condescending asshole). So I don't know if I just don't buy the concepts, or if I don't buy the methods used to derive or apply the concepts.

So as you say, it may be a paradigm difference (Here's my paradigm) which, as someone who wants to discuss things, is frustrating because it makes communication hard and agreement impossible because we/I will be caught up in the methodology and we won't get far into discussing the actual concepts. Ugh....

All this talk of paradigm...I eventually would like to read up on the philosophy of science, so thanks for your thread a long ways back in the debate section. I won't get to that for quite a few years most likely... In any case, you actually might be interested in that link if you are still interested in the philosophy of science and ever care to see the kind of defunct reasoning regarding the methods of social science that I am easily persuaded by haha.
GT: Zyphex

Last edited by zyphex; 04-28-2014 at 05:31 PM.
PM
1 authentic experience
PM's Avatar
Join Date: May 2007
Location:  
Posts: 12,409
Subtract from PM's ReputationAdd to PM's Reputation PM IS OVER 9000 PM IS OVER 9000 PM IS OVER 9000 PM IS OVER 9000 PM IS OVER 9000 PM IS OVER 9000 PM IS OVER 9000 PM IS OVER 9000 PM IS OVER 9000 PM IS OVER 9000 PM IS OVER 9000
#53
04-28-2014
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by davobrosia View Post
At the gym so I can't reply at much more length, but it should be conceivable that a group of dynamic systems (people) interacting can give rise to emergent phenomena that can't be reduced to any one subset of the group (cf. Durkheim).
on this point, http://books.google.com/books?id=3U4...ective&f=false


@zyphex, why did you type "here's my paradigm" and not "here's my ideology"
Quote:
I eventually would like to read up on the philosophy of science
oh. lol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cursed Lemon View Post
Here's the problem - I am not a means to the end of rape culture, I am the end. I am literally the termination of this whole ordeal.
here's the problem

Last edited by PM; 04-28-2014 at 11:34 PM.
zyphex
Level 25
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA
Posts: 888
Subtract from zyphex's ReputationAdd to zyphex's Reputation zyphex IS OVER 9000 zyphex IS OVER 9000 zyphex IS OVER 9000 zyphex IS OVER 9000 zyphex IS OVER 9000 zyphex IS OVER 9000 zyphex IS OVER 9000 zyphex IS OVER 9000
Send a message via AIM to zyphex
#54
04-29-2014
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PM View Post
@zyphex, why did you type "here's my paradigm" and not "here's my ideology"
Probably because that is the word Davo used to describe our difference after I was spouting off about methodological individualism. Whatever term makes you feel better will do.

Quote:
oh. lol.
Cool.
GT: Zyphex
PM
1 authentic experience
PM's Avatar
Join Date: May 2007
Location:  
Posts: 12,409
Subtract from PM's ReputationAdd to PM's Reputation PM IS OVER 9000 PM IS OVER 9000 PM IS OVER 9000 PM IS OVER 9000 PM IS OVER 9000 PM IS OVER 9000 PM IS OVER 9000 PM IS OVER 9000 PM IS OVER 9000 PM IS OVER 9000 PM IS OVER 9000
#55
04-29-2014
Default

yeah except those two things are a little different, and what you're describing is the latter


i said lol because you admitted to not having even read much philo of sci (even less history of philo of sci, i'd imagine) and still privilege "validity" because homeboy



i'll leave this here again http://books.google.com/books?id=3U4...ective&f=false
i'm guessing you don't even care to understand what's being said in this bit, but it's 100% relevant to the issue of "individuals". . . as is habitus, elaborated elsewhere, and the notion of incorporating practices (or cultural bodily memory)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cursed Lemon View Post
Here's the problem - I am not a means to the end of rape culture, I am the end. I am literally the termination of this whole ordeal.
here's the problem

Last edited by PM; 04-29-2014 at 08:39 AM.
davobrosia
Ask Z for $50
davobrosia's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 22,593
Subtract from davobrosia's ReputationAdd to davobrosia's Reputation davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000
Send a message via AIM to davobrosia
#56
04-29-2014
Default

Also, in case you didn't click through, here is the full text of the bit on "the System":
Quote:
Though I’m radio silent, this email was important:

After reading your piece, I thought you may be interested in this article [from Dissent]. I doubt you’ll agree with everything, but certainly an interesting / similar take to yours on Lean In:

Where other feminists focus on articulating the amount of free or underpaid labor that women do, Sandberg places a priceless value on labor itself and encourages more of it, whether paid, unpaid, or poorly paid.
[...]
The loser in the Lean In vision of work isn’t one version of feminism or another [...] but uncapitalized, unmonetized life itself. Just as Facebook relies on users to faithfully upload their data to drive site growth, Facebook relies on its employees to devote ever greater time to growing Facebook’s empire.
[...]
Sandberg is betting that for some women, as for herself, the pursuit of corporate power is desirable, and that many women will ramp up their labor ever further in hopes that one day they, too, will be “in.” And whether or not those women make it, the companies they work for will profit by their unceasing labor.

The quote seems right, but there’s an important difference between my article and Dissent’s, I am not splitting hairs, it’s fundamental.

The problem is that Dissent is just as fooled as everyone else is in thinking that Sandberg’s book is interesting/relevant in itself, “the fact that she is COO of Facebook is a sufficient resume to speak on women’s issues,” and so they think they need to address what Sandberg says…. because Sandberg said it. But that’s the trick. We don’t parse out what the (female) CEO of General Dynamics says, no one writes articles about her, because what she says can’t be used to promote the system, what Phebe Novakovic believes won’t motivate a future 9-5er to work overtime: she’s not pretty enough, she works in explosions, she’s not aspirational. That’s why there is no Time Magazine spread on her, even though she rules the world. To paraphrase the great Marshall McLuhan, the messenger isn’t the message, and the message isn’t the message. The medium is the message, properly massaged.

The crucial point is a meta one: Sandberg herself is being used in exactly the way Dissent says she is getting other women to be used. Whatever Sandberg believes she is doing, the system is using her as a battery (to get women to work harder, for less money, in exchange for the trappings of power– fame, titles, prestige.) If we believe Sandberg is earnestly trying to advance women in the workplace, then the system is using her (comparatively) cheap labor for the purpose of enhancing that very system, not changing it.

To illustrate why Dissent has missed the point, let’s take Dissent’s thesis and summarize it in one sentence: “Sandberg is a lunatic because she is asking women to work harder for the system, in exchange for titles/prestige/the trappings of power.” Not only is this thesis wrong, it is a defense against change, because if you don’t agree with Sandberg’s message, you find fault only with Sandberg. Meanwhile, the system proceeds unmolested.

I realize that “the system” is a nebulous term relying on an even more nebulous “unconscious”, lacking clear definition, so I’m going to try and define it. First, start with a single individual, and eliminate value words like “purpose” and “unintended consequences.” If a guy cheats on his girlfriend in a way that likely could get him caught, one might say, “he wants to get caught.”

Now add a few more individuals. I want an ipad, but I can’t afford the $10000 it would cost to make it in America AND generate to Apple the same nominal profit of $300/ipad, so then the ipad has to be made in China with cheaper labor. So while one can say, “the consumer wants an ipad,” and “Apple wants $300 in profit per ipad” the sum of those wants is “the system”: “The system wants cheap Chinese labor.” The system doesn’t want it because it’s awesome, it wants it because it added up the wants.

To be clear, the fact that ipad consumers don’t “want” cheap Chinese labor is irrelevant. All of their choices want cheap Chinese labor. You can say the same about renewable energies, something that everyone says they “want,” yet all of their choices sum up to the system’s want: the system wants to protect the oil industry. The CEO of ExxonMobil isn’t to blame, you are.

To go back to Sandberg, if the system wants cheap female labor, how would we change the system? Only by wanting different things. Simply, if the majority of women wanted to work less, that would be the game. But the majority of women do want to work less, but they also want to buy X, Y, Z aspirational products, and they want X,Y,Z way more then they want to work less. If you sum up those “wants,” and add in the wants of Nordstrom’s, Nine West, Whole Foods, Visa and Mastercard, etc, and throw in what the media wants, then it is technically correct to say: the system wants women to become batteries.

The final twist to this otherwise simple addition is that what you want is often taught to you by that very system. For example, in running through the above, what you didn’t say was, “maybe I don’t want an ipad.” That thought cannot occur to you…. because the system wants it. Try saying this to your friends and see what happens: “I’m not interested in a career, I just want to get married and have kids.”
Spoiler!
davobrosia
Ask Z for $50
davobrosia's Avatar
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 22,593
Subtract from davobrosia's ReputationAdd to davobrosia's Reputation davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000 davobrosia IS OVER 9000
Send a message via AIM to davobrosia
#57
04-29-2014
Default

This is a much longer read but is a good case study in the way the author uses "the System" as shorthand.

http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2010/...n_colbert.html



The last few paragraphs really bring it home, for me:
Quote:
What you see isn't a systematic attempt to hide the truth from you, but the accidentally organized and random conflict of various individuals which has resulted in both iPads and temporary 10% unemployment. It is comforting to blame this on some flaw in the system, but there is no system, there is only people, and they have no time for theory. In theory, there is no "they"-- just psychology the result of language mediated by these capitalist interactions. But in practice, there are lots of theys, and they act in completely unpredictable ways-- unpredictable if you're looking at them as cogs in a system. Over beers and hash we can debate whether global capitalism requires emergency shifts into socialism, or not, but don't think for a moment it is organized or hierarchical. And thank God.

Real control-- positive and negative-- comes from within. Those guys don't have to lie to you. You are being lied to, by yourself. If you want to change it, now you know where to start.


---

Addendum: too many emails about Bernie Madoff, so:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Zizek
So, you know, there is a structural problem beneath all this psychological topic of the greedy bankers, which is, that's how capitalism works, my God, which is why even concerning our beloved model--Bernard Madoff, no?--I didn't like it how they focused on him. He was just the radical version of where the system is pushing you. Now, I'm not saying--I'm not crazy--"which is why we need to nationalize all banks and introduce immediately socialist dictatorship" or what. What I'm just saying is, let's not get rid of the problem by too easily making it into a psychological problem. You know, you can be an evil guy, but there must be very precise institutional, economic, and so on, coordinates, background, which allows you to do what you do.
That it's not a psychological problem is an odd thing for a psychoanalyst to say. But nevertheless, that Bernie Madoff knew how to work the system is different than saying the system allowed him to do it, or that the system creates Bernie Madoffs, or that he is simply an extreme case of what the system creates. The system doesn't do anything, you do it all in reaction to the system. Bernie Madoff did those things because of... Bernie Madoff. To the extent that the institution itself is to blame, he should get less time, otherwise it is merely revenge; which it is, because there's no system: it is punishment handed out by individuals against another individual, or, more accurately, individuals manipulating the system to get the outcome they want.
Spoiler!

Last edited by davobrosia; 04-29-2014 at 08:46 AM.
zyphex
Level 25
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA
Posts: 888
Subtract from zyphex's ReputationAdd to zyphex's Reputation zyphex IS OVER 9000 zyphex IS OVER 9000 zyphex IS OVER 9000 zyphex IS OVER 9000 zyphex IS OVER 9000 zyphex IS OVER 9000 zyphex IS OVER 9000 zyphex IS OVER 9000
Send a message via AIM to zyphex
#58
04-29-2014
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PM View Post
yeah except those two things are a little different, and what you're describing is the latter


i said lol because you admitted to not having even read much philo of sci (even less history of philo of sci, i'd imagine) and still privilege "validity" because homeboy



i'll leave this here again http://books.google.com/books?id=3U4...ective&f=false
i'm guessing you don't even care to understand what's being said in this bit, but it's 100% relevant to the issue of "individuals". . . as is habitus, elaborated elsewhere, and the notion of incorporating practices (or cultural bodily memory)
Do you think you are impressing anybody, sweetie?

How about you respond to Davo substantively and just leave me alone. I don't value your thoughts. I don't think many people do. It is probably why you are so grumpy.
GT: Zyphex

Last edited by zyphex; 04-29-2014 at 08:50 AM.
zyphex
Level 25
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA
Posts: 888
Subtract from zyphex's ReputationAdd to zyphex's Reputation zyphex IS OVER 9000 zyphex IS OVER 9000 zyphex IS OVER 9000 zyphex IS OVER 9000 zyphex IS OVER 9000 zyphex IS OVER 9000 zyphex IS OVER 9000 zyphex IS OVER 9000
Send a message via AIM to zyphex
#59
04-29-2014
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PM View Post
cue that whole point about ressentiment, habitus again

wah i don't want to read what would seek to undermine my entire rationalization webwork
would you prefer i quote a block from every article i link?

why are you calling me grumpy? heh, maybe you should read the posts again
I'll just leave this nugget here again:

How about you respond to Davo substantively and just leave me alone. I don't value your thoughts.

How unfair and bigoted of me, how ideological, huh? Me using a defense mechanism so I don't have to have my homeboy challenged most likely, huh?
GT: Zyphex
PM
1 authentic experience
PM's Avatar
Join Date: May 2007
Location:  
Posts: 12,409
Subtract from PM's ReputationAdd to PM's Reputation PM IS OVER 9000 PM IS OVER 9000 PM IS OVER 9000 PM IS OVER 9000 PM IS OVER 9000 PM IS OVER 9000 PM IS OVER 9000 PM IS OVER 9000 PM IS OVER 9000 PM IS OVER 9000 PM IS OVER 9000
#60
04-29-2014
Default

deleting posts so i'm not shitting up davo's thread too much, but i do sincerely wish you would at least read a bit of these links. they are like paragraphs long. individualism is a flawed methodology.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cursed Lemon View Post
Here's the problem - I am not a means to the end of rape culture, I am the end. I am literally the termination of this whole ordeal.
here's the problem

Last edited by PM; 04-29-2014 at 09:11 AM.
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off