Just throwin' in some comments on this.
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Originally Posted by FraGTaLiTy
Here is my step-by-step explanation on why free will cannot exist if the universe was created by an omnipotent and omniscient god. Despite the title's name, this isn't exclusive to Christianity. It is applicable to any religion that assumes the universe was created by a totally omniscient and omnipotent deity.
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1. God is omniscient. This means there cannot be anything that he does not know. He knows all.
2. God is omnipotent. This means there cannot be anything he cannot do. He is all powerful. However, we must assume his omnipotence is bounded by logic. Reason being, if his power isn't bounded by logic, we cannot deduce anything about him because our method of deduction is "restricted" by logic. Since religion inherently deduces characteristics of god, religious people must believe god is restricted by logic. Otherwise, they contradict their own beliefs.
3. God created life and the universe. This means god existed before life and the universe existed.
4. God could have created life and the universe in any way that is logically consistent because he is omnipotent.
5. God knows the entire future of every potential design for life/universe. There is nothing within each potential design he does not know, nor is there anything that will result of each potential design that he does not know. Otherwise he is not omniscient.
6. By choosing one design over others, he is not just choosing what the design is. He is inherently choosing what the future will entail.
7. God chose one design over all the others, knowing in advance the entire future that will result of this design. He chose this design AND this future over other potential designs and corresponding futures.
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This one's a pretty big jump. You sort of have to take this as an assumption to use it, and it seems to be a rather big one. We don't and can't know if one design was chosen over others.
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8. By choosing the future, it follows necessarily that the future will unfold as he foresaw it. Otherwise, he did not chose the future.
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I'm not entirely sure the whole time thing follows. If G_d created the universe, and time along with it, then in reality, wouldn't all of time be essentially the same from G_d's perspective? More like a complete thing, with time being something of an artifact we observe. I don't really know how to argue in an arena where time and causality are essentially meaningless. Mostly, just that you have to be very careful with using time in these sorts of arguments.
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9. Free will, by definition, is the philosophical doctrine stating that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not determined by physical or divine forces (source). Consequently, free will requires that our choices cannot be predestined by anything. Our choices are free, independent, voluntary, and not dictated by any outside source.
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That doesn't seem like much of a definition to me. It looks more like calling free will by a different name. Anyways, personal choice is influenced greatly by external forces.
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10. Humans are part of the creation that god chose.
11. The future of humans must unfold exactly as god foresaw it, which was foreseen before this universe was even created.
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From a timeless viewpoint, this essentially becomes a tautology.
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12. Humans cannot make a decision that defies this "future". Every decision, thought, and action, and anything else that exists within the universe/life must happen exactly according to what he foresaw.
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I don't quite agree with this. This seems to go with the definition that free will exists because we could have made alternative decisions, however, these alternatives could never have actually happened from the choice that we make. The impossibility of other actions having happened here is a product of the choice, not of the knowledge of the choice.
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13. The conduct of humans is determined by the future that god choose before we even existed.
14. God is a divine source, thus human conduct was already determined by a divine source long before we even existed.
15. Free will, by definition, cannot exist within such a god's creation because it is a logical contradiction with god's characteristics. God cannot do anything contradictory because his omnipotence is bounded by logic.
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Here is a simpler one that someone else wrote:
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1. You have a choice between A and B.
2. God knows what decision you will make.
3. God had the power to create a universe in which he knew you would choose A.
4. God had the power to create a universe in which he knew you would choose B.
5. God is never wrong.
6. God created the current universe in which he knows you will choose A.
7. You cannot make a decision that would violate God's perfect knowledge.
8. Therefore, you cannot choose B. Your decision was predetermined by God's creation of this universe.
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Any thoughts or refutations?
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Time is weird. Also, quantum is weird. Especially the absolute necessity of randomness, which sort of throws a monkey wrench in a lot of this determinism stuff :/ Not only do we not know of any way to remove the randomness, but local effects are not capable of removing it and remaining consistent with observations, and non-local effects don't seem to do it either. Not that I'm an expert in the field.
On a personal note, I'm pretty sure time is just a government conspiracy.
Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.
Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm the rest of his life.
  Thanks to Shystie for avatar
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