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Lat3ksi
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#21
01-27-2015
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I guess we can all agree Standoff can be a good map with the right people. In my opinion most Halo 3 maps were good maps in the way they were meant to be played. While Lockout, Chillout, Sidewinder and Midship remakes weren't as fun in Halo 3.

I stopped at Reach so I can't comment on H4 maps but I have to say the same thing about Reflection (Ivory Tower) and even Sword Base. Most Reach maps have many, many flaws and they can be pain to play if you're soloing but I had some fun with people willing to chat and friends as guests. And no, I don't mean fucking around, but playing semi-competitively. Still, they don't come any close to the quality of the maps on the older games.
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#22
01-27-2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RVideo View Post
I don't know why I was thinking this but I wonder sometimes why nobody really talks about a particular map made after Halo 3 like it is a familiar playground. How many times have you said (or heard someone say) over the years things like

"Remember the time we played TS on Lockout/Midship/Guardian/Warlock? Yeah that was crazy shit"

"Loved all the drunk BTB games on Containment/Coag/Waterworks/Headlong/Sandtrap!"

If you mention words like Sanctuary, Beaver Creek, Terminal, The Pit or even Gemini most die hard Halo fans can immediately picture *themselves* playing on any of those maps and almost certainly recall fond memories of games played on them. These maps all had a definitive 'sense of place' that emblazoned them onto the minds eye forever. They had personality and were not geometries of anonymous if ornate sterility, forgettable spaces that I played in ODST, Reach and H4 ( and predictably, H5 I'm guessing). Playing on them was almost like actually visiting them in person sometimes.

But since Halo3 I have not played a single map that made me feel this way. I don't know what it is or how to describe it so maybe you can help me figure out what I am thinking here. But still, I wonder if we were just lucky enough to capture a golden moment in time when multiplayer was at its best, but is perhaps lost and whose quintessence may never be realized again.

What do you think
Aside from the incompetence of the developers, I'd say forge is a pretty big issue.

In my opinion, forge is a gift and a curse. It's a great tool for players to get their creative juices flowing and build their dream map(s) but it's also a tool that developers can fall back on when people blame them for not being innovative enough to create good maps.

I don't know about you, but I didn't pay $60 to waste my time spending hours forging a map that nobody aside from me and a select few others will play on. I bought the game because I had faith in the developer to create fun, breathtaking maps that will leave me craving more. Don't get me wrong, if forging maps is your thing, I'm not trying to discredit you. We all play for our own reasons.

Being that Halo 3 had solid maps out of the box, user-created maps weren't a huge factor in matchmaking. Yes, forged maps were eventually included in matchmaking but they weren't as heavily weighted as the native maps were.

Halo: Reach was the game that made me despise forged maps. The maps out of the box were horrid which lead to an influx of user-created content which eventually became heavily weighted in almost every playlist due to the lack of 'good' native maps. Almost every forged map was completely colorless (gray) and the rotation of maps changed so much it was hard to keep track of if you didn't play religiously.

Halo 4 was a doozy. Every map had this weird fog-like blur to them and the maps out of the box sucked. Once again, the developer turns to the community and matchmaking turns to a colorless, confusing shithole.


Don't get me wrong, forge isn't the primary issue - incompetence is. These companies (specifically 343i) outsource the creation of their maps to people who have no idea what makes a Halo map great to begin with.

In my opinion, forge is a tool implemented by developers to utilize players' imaginations for an obvious lack of their own. For better or worse, that's what I believe.
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#23
01-28-2015
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I'm surprised people include H3 in the "great era" of maps, to be honest. Coming from Halo 2, I thought the maps in H3 were one of the worst parts about the game. They're all fucking huge. In 4v4 or FFA, there's a world of difference going from maps like Lockout, Warlock, Midship, Beaver, etc. to Construct, The Pit, and Narrows (not to mention shit like Snowbound/High Ground). Don't get me wrong, the three H3 maps I mentioned are decent and competitive maps, and they play smaller in team games, but they don't touch what H2 had imo. Part of it is the game itself, but they don't capture the type of fun, nonstop action/intensity you get with a warlock or midship type of map. (I neglected to mention Guardian here for obvious reasons, but it was obviously an actual small 4v4 map.)

Thinking about it a different way, I would spend hours and hours in a row running Lockout or Midship, but I'd never want to play any H3 map more than a few times in a row if I had a choice. Anyway, not trying to start a Halo 3 hatefest or anything, was just offering a different perspective on its 4v4 maps. They're certainly better than what came afterward, don't get it twisted.

This thread is the reason the only thing I play now is Reach's Anniversary playlist. Even on Reach I can have fun with Prisoner, Damnation, Hang Em, and Beaver Creek all day long (especially the first two).

Last edited by iDiesel; 01-28-2015 at 12:27 AM.
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#24
01-28-2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iDiesel View Post
I'm surprised people include H3 in the "great era" of maps, to be honest. Coming from Halo 2, I thought the maps in H3 were one of the worst parts about the game. They're all fucking huge. In 4v4 or FFA, there's a world of difference going from maps like Lockout, Warlock, Midship, Beaver, etc. to Construct, The Pit, and Narrows (not to mention shit like Snowbound/High Ground). Don't get me wrong, the three H3 maps I mentioned are decent and competitive maps, and they play smaller in team games, but they don't touch what H2 had imo. Part of it is the game itself, but they don't capture the type of fun, nonstop action/intensity you get with a warlock or midship type of map. (I neglected to mention Guardian here for obvious reasons, but it was obviously an actual small 4v4 map.)

Thinking about it a different way, I would spend hours and hours in a row running Lockout or Midship, but I'd never want to play any H3 map more than a few times in a row if I had a choice. Anyway, not trying to start a Halo 3 hatefest or anything, was just offering a different perspective on its 4v4 maps. They're certainly better than what came afterward, don't get it twisted.

This thread is the reason the only thing I play now is Reach's Anniversary playlist. Even on Reach I can have fun with Prisoner, Damnation, Hang Em, and Beaver Creek all day long (especially the first two).
I assume by "nonstop fun" you are referring to the pace of the game. The pace of a game is ultimately determined by the players and the level of competition. Competitive 4v4 Lockout TS games can be just as standoffish (if not more so) than competitive 4v4 Pit TS games. If you're playing FFA snipes with your friends, Guardian or Heretic can bring just as much "nonstop fun" as Lockout or Midship can.

As for all Halo 3 maps being "fucking huge" - let's take a look at some of Halo 2's maps you failed to mention. Ascension, Backwash, Burial Mounds, Coagulation, Colossus, Containment, Desolation, Elongation, Foundation, Headlong, Relic, Terminal, Tombstone, Uplift, Waterworks, and Zanzibar. Those maps are "fucking huge."

Halo 2 has about 8 medium-small maps geared for competitive 4s and those are Beaver Creek, Gemini, Ivory Tower, Lockout, Midship, Sanctuary, Turf and Warlock.

Halo 3's "fucking huge" maps are Avalanche, Last Resort, Longshore, Rat's Nest, Sandtrap, Standoff, and Valhalla.

A few of Halo 3's medium-small maps (to name a few, there's more) are Assembly, Blackout, Citadel, Cold Storage, Construct, Foundry, Guardian, Heretic, Snowbound, Sandbox, and The Pit.


Don't get me wrong, I love Halo 2 just as much as anybody else but what you are saying is completely biased and uneducated. If you dislike a specific H3 map or the game itself, that's fine, you are entitled to your opinion. However, don't generalize based off of your minimal experience with the game. Halo 3 was one of the most vibrant and competitive Halo games in terms of its longevity, population-wise.

Last edited by Tommy Kost; 01-28-2015 at 01:43 AM.
Lat3ksi
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#25
01-28-2015
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Fuck, I loved that Citadel map. Had the best MLG games on it. Felt like a Halo 1 map:
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#26
01-28-2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tommy Kost View Post
I assume by "nonstop fun" you are referring to the pace of the game. The pace of a game is ultimately determined by the players and the level of competition. Competitive 4v4 Lockout TS games can be just as standoffish (if not more so) than competitive 4v4 Pit TS games. If you're playing FFA snipes with your friends, Guardian or Heretic can bring just as much "nonstop fun" as Lockout or Midship can.

As for all Halo 3 maps being "fucking huge" - let's take a look at some of Halo 2's maps you failed to mention. Ascension, Backwash, Burial Mounds, Coagulation, Colossus, Containment, Desolation, Elongation, Foundation, Headlong, Relic, Terminal, Tombstone, Uplift, Waterworks, and Zanzibar. Those maps are "fucking huge."

Halo 2 has about 8 medium-small maps geared for competitive 4s and those are Beaver Creek, Gemini, Ivory Tower, Lockout, Midship, Sanctuary, Turf and Warlock.

Halo 3's "fucking huge" maps are Avalanche, Last Resort, Longshore, Rat's Nest, Sandtrap, Standoff, and Valhalla.

A few of Halo 3's medium-small maps (to name a few, there's more) are Assembly, Blackout, Citadel, Cold Storage, Construct, Foundry, Guardian, Heretic, Snowbound, Sandbox, and The Pit.


Don't get me wrong, I love Halo 2 just as much as anybody else but what you are saying is completely biased and uneducated. If you dislike a specific H3 map or the game itself, that's fine, you are entitled to your opinion. However, don't generalize based off of your minimal experience with the game. Halo 3 was one of the most vibrant and competitive Halo games in terms of its longevity, population-wise.
You forget what we're actually talking about, though. We're talking about "legendary maps", I'm not evaluating halo 3's maps as a whole. Just the ones I perceived to be the most popular based on my experience (i.e. most likely to be considered "legendary"). I was also talking about 4v4/smaller maps. That's why I didn't bring up stuff like Backwash lol. See my second paragraph.

I'll respond to the rest later, gtg back to work at the moment.

Edit: sorry if my origin post was misleading or unclear in terms of how I was evaluating h3, it was a bit rushed and poorly explained at times in that first paragraph. I can see how it'd be misunderstood, but hopefully my overall point is a bit clearer now.

Last edited by iDiesel; 01-28-2015 at 01:39 PM.
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#27
01-28-2015
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iDiesel View Post
You forget what we're actually talking about, though. We're talking about "legendary maps", I'm not evaluating halo 3's maps as a whole. Just the ones I perceived to be the most popular based on my experience (i.e. most likely to be considered "legendary"). I was also talking about 4v4/smaller maps. That's why I didn't bring up stuff like Backwash lol. See my second paragraph.

I'll respond to the rest later, gtg back to work at the moment.
Regardless, it's a matter of opinion. Some of the most revered names in Halo consider The Pit, Guardian, Narrows, and Construct to be among the greatest maps of all time. Not only were those maps original (native to Halo 3) but they all had a unique feel to them.

You fail to realize that legends are man-made and your perception is based off of your experience. If you dislike Halo 3's maps, that's fine, but there's thousands of people who will respectfully disagree with you.

Quote:
I thought the maps in H3 were one of the worst parts about the game. They're all fucking huge.
They are not "all fucking huge."

Quote:
In 4v4 or FFA, there's a world of difference going from maps like Lockout, Warlock, Midship, Beaver, etc. to Construct, The Pit, and Narrows (not to mention shit like Snowbound/High Ground).
Halo 2 and Halo 3 are two different games with different mechanics. However, 4v4s/FFAs on The Pit, Guardian, Construct, hell, even Snowbound can be just as intense/competitive as 4v4s/FFAs on Lockout, Midship, or Warlock. Have you ever played any high level matchmaking in Halo 3?

Quote:
Don't get me wrong, the three H3 maps I mentioned are decent and competitive maps, and they play smaller in team games, but they don't touch what H2 had imo. Part of it is the game itself, but they don't capture the type of fun, nonstop action/intensity you get with a warlock or midship type of map.
Yes, part of it is the game itself. If you dislike the game (and its mechanics) you will naturally dislike the maps. I can tell you aren't a huge Halo 3 fan and, once again, that is completely fine.


I'm not trying to start an argument or a thread-long debate on this, I just felt the need to call you out on your poor choice of words. I didn't like Halo 3 initially (in 2007) either but, in my opinion, it was the last game that felt like "Halo."
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#28
01-29-2015
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Seeing as I'm a Reach/H4 noob, I think I can maybe offer a unique perspective on this.

I think a certain part of it is the community's general hate and loathing of the newer games (which btw I completely understand). H4 and to a lesser extent Reach were simply less Halo-y than CE, 2 and 3. The classic maps (Lockout, Chill Out, Blood Gulch, Warlock) have been replaced by the sort of loathing "not this shit again" maps (Exile, Ragnarok, Haven, Uncaged)
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#29
01-30-2015
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Seeing as I'm a Reach/H4 noob, I think I can maybe offer a unique perspective on this.

I think a certain part of it is the community's general hate and loathing of the newer games (which btw I completely understand). H4 and to a lesser extent Reach were simply less Halo-y than CE, 2 and 3. The classic maps (Lockout, Chill Out, Blood Gulch, Warlock) have been replaced by the sort of loathing "not this shit again" maps (Exile, Ragnarok, Haven, Uncaged)

But its not just the multiplayer maps I am wondering about. Consider the legendary campaign maps from H1/2/3. Even today there are fans glitching on Assault On The Control Room, unheard of for a fourteen year old map. Mention "Silent Cartographer" to any die hard Halo fan and they immediately know what you are talking about and may even respond with a reverent sigh.
Other campaign maps that fans love even years later - High Charity (h2), New Mombasa (h2 - the one where the scorpion pops out of nowhere for the first time in Halo), 343 Guilty Spark (h1), the final run of h1 where you drive the warthog through the Pillar.

Remember the first time you saw that green ooze dripping from Truth and Reconciliation from the ground? How creepy was that! And then you realize that the ship wasn't just a backdrop, Bungie actually made it playable! How about the section of The Flood where you find a crazed Marine while Flood ooze drips from the ceiling. How amazing was that!

Or how about Halo3 with the cinematic-worthy scenes like the beach battle? Did anyone else's heart sink when Miranda was killed? Or the Sarge? For me, I really feel like when Johnson died, that was the end of Halo. I mean it just died right there in that Forerunner construct. That was it. The soul that was Halo ended, left this world and never came back.

Now, compare all those epic and innovative moments that were a part of the H1/2/3 experience and compare them to Reach, ODST or H4. Can you mention *any* epic stage or sub-stage where *everyone* goes AHHHH or OOOOHH yeah I loved that!

No, you can't. Because there just aren't any of those moments. Everyone remembers when they sniped those annoying jackals tucked away in the shadows of New Mombasa. Or when they blew up their first Scorpion. Or when the Tank Beat Everything. Or when you killed the Prophet or cut the support cables for the Forerunner harvesting station (by the prophets! look at the station list! remember that?) Or when you fought your way back down that awesome pyramid ramp structure of the Control Room past Elites and grunts and Hunters.

Halos 1-3 all have moments like these. Hundreds. And even today, you can load up Halo 1, all those years away and play through it's now-ancient campaign with the low polys and lack of HDR or advanced shaders and still love it just as much as you did back in 2001 or 2002.

Those days are gone. Halo is gone. It's never going to come back because whoever was behind the thousands of little nuances of genius that gave Halo it's personality from grunt birthday parties to the full tilt skull are no longer there any more.

That's all I have to say on the matter.
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#30
01-30-2015
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I don't expect it will ever feel the same. Used to have a friends list full of people who did nothing but play h2 customs all day long, play an ffa for hours on end, and adrenaline pumping the whole time. Haven't had a game do that for me since, but of course we all grow up and get jobs lol.


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