Halo 2 Forum > Off-topic > Debate Forum > Religion Debate
 
 
Display Modes Thread Tools
Froggy618157725
Level 31
Froggy618157725's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,012
Subtract from Froggy618157725's ReputationAdd to Froggy618157725's Reputation Froggy618157725 is a novice
Send a message via AIM to Froggy618157725 Send a message via MSN to Froggy618157725 Send a message via Yahoo to Froggy618157725
#1
11-13-2008
Default The Nature of G_d

When I try to reason about G_d, I like to start out with a blank slate. After all, if G_d exists, G_d exists independently of religion.

Since I don't start out with any sort of broad assumptions, I miss many of the common problems.

My starting assumption is that G_d is at least the system upo n which reality exists. This is a pretty benign assumption, since the universe apparently exists, and must have some method of existing.

So, at this point, we have G_d existing outside of time. The existence of reality and our universe is entirely dependent on G_d. Anything unknown to G_d would not exist, as all of existence is contained within G_d. So, we've got omnipresence and omniscience right away. Something we don't know is if G_d could be considered conscious, or if that even has meaning. I don't know enough about sentience or consciousness to make any sort of assertion there, but it's somewhat conceivable for G_d to have some sort of parallel, as I am conscious, sentient, and exist, and my consciousness must have some form of existing.

We've still got the problem of motivation. The only way I know of to resolve this is basically the many worlds interpretation where all things that can be are simultaneously. In that, we would just be one of an infinite number of possibilities in an infinite number of universes with every possible configuration of everything.

So, putting that aside for the sake of not making heads asplode, I'll move on.

I believe in a personal G_d, that is that I believe that G_d interacts with the universe actively, and more specifically with people.

The problem of motivation becomes quite huge here, along with issues of time, and whether or not G_d can possess anything comparable to our ideal of sentience/consciousness.

Glossing over that, we can add omnipotence to the list of attributes. I don't feel it would make sense to call something which does not actively act omnipotent. Being the source of existence makes omnipotence quite trivial.

As for perfection, I don't think that term has meaning in this scenario, as something being perfect requires some sort of comparison, and there isn't really anything to compare to.

Under this set of assumptions and definitions, we'd effectively exist in the "imagination" of G_d. This can lead to quite a few curiosities...

It's readily visible that most of this is non falsifiable. How could one possible detect something which is the means by which any sort of detection is possible?


Now, predetermination. If the future exists at any point in time, G_d must know it, as time does not apply to G_d, being the source of time. Therefore, G_d would know of all your actions. However, from that perspective, you have simultaneously made all of your decisions. This makes the issue of free will much more confusing, and I cannot make any progress without understanding what we truly are.

Any sort of information about G_d that bears relevance to our daily lives would need to come from personal accounts. No other source of information would make sense. Naturally, it's difficult to make any sort of statements about G_d based off of anecdotes.

I feel I've got a decent bit in that category, but I'd like this topic to be more about poking holes in the reasoning above, and pointing out the consequences.


Let the lack of posting begin!
Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.
Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm the rest of his life.

Thanks to Shystie for avatar
Delay
Level 44
Delay's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: CA
Posts: 10,693
Subtract from Delay's ReputationAdd to Delay's Reputation Delay is legendary Delay is legendary Delay is legendary
#2
11-13-2008
Default

Do you really have to type "G_d"?

It is so annoying lol.
Froggy618157725
Level 31
Froggy618157725's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,012
Subtract from Froggy618157725's ReputationAdd to Froggy618157725's Reputation Froggy618157725 is a novice
Send a message via AIM to Froggy618157725 Send a message via MSN to Froggy618157725 Send a message via Yahoo to Froggy618157725
#3
11-13-2008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sC DeLAy View Post
Do you really have to type "G_d"?

It is so annoying lol.
I thought of preemptively responding to this, but I decided against in. In short, no, but I prefer to.
Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.
Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm the rest of his life.

Thanks to Shystie for avatar
Apollion
Level 20
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 696
Subtract from Apollion's ReputationAdd to Apollion's Reputation Apollion is a novice
#4
11-14-2008
Default

So, I was about to send you a PM, Froggy, asking for some clarification, but I decided against that. Your last sentence inspired me to post. Now, here is the part that throws me off a bit-not the only part that throws me off, but the one part I feel I can adequately question:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Froggy618157725 View Post
So, at this point, we have G_d existing outside of time. The existence of reality and our universe is entirely dependent on G_d.

Now, predetermination. If the future exists at any point in time, G_d must know it, as time does not apply to G_d, being the source of time.

Let the lack of posting begin!
How can God exist out of time, and yet be the source of it? I have a feeling this is a rather simple answer, but one in which I'm having problems wrapping my head around.

More questions to come, as soon as I have thought of ways to come up with them in a way that they make a bit of sense...
"The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today Is Christians
who acknowledge Jesus with their lips
Then walk out the door and deny him by their lifestyle.
That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable."
DC Talk, "What If I Stumble"

Froggy618157725
Level 31
Froggy618157725's Avatar
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,012
Subtract from Froggy618157725's ReputationAdd to Froggy618157725's Reputation Froggy618157725 is a novice
Send a message via AIM to Froggy618157725 Send a message via MSN to Froggy618157725 Send a message via Yahoo to Froggy618157725
#5
11-14-2008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apollion View Post
So, I was about to send you a PM, Froggy, asking for some clarification, but I decided against that. Your last sentence inspired me to post. Now, here is the part that throws me off a bit-not the only part that throws me off, but the one part I feel I can adequately question:

How can God exist out of time, and yet be the source of it? I have a feeling this is a rather simple answer, but one in which I'm having problems wrapping my head around.

More questions to come, as soon as I have thought of ways to come up with them in a way that they make a bit of sense...
Think of movie editing software. The video is laid out over time, but that time has nothing to do with what you yourself experience. You see the entire time line at once, with everything in it laid out. You can see the order, but are not bound by that in any way.

It's something like that, but more complicated in that I'm unsure, and doubtful if there would be anything analogous to time at that level.
Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.
Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm the rest of his life.

Thanks to Shystie for avatar
McDevy
Soshified
McDevy's Avatar
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Skag Gully
Posts: 10,941
Subtract from McDevy's ReputationAdd to McDevy's Reputation McDevy is a novice
#6
11-14-2008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Froggy618157725 View Post
Any sort of information about G_d that bears relevance to our daily lives would need to come from personal accounts. No other source of information would make sense. Naturally, it's difficult to make any sort of statements about G_d based off of anecdotes.
Would that not negate any sort of connection/reasoning for the idea of a personal god? It's thus anecdotal.

All we'd have would be the idea/concept of a god with no connection to their work.
CraftyVertan
Ask Z for $50
CraftyVertan's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 28,443
Subtract from CraftyVertan's ReputationAdd to CraftyVertan's Reputation CraftyVertan IS OVER 9000 CraftyVertan IS OVER 9000 CraftyVertan IS OVER 9000 CraftyVertan IS OVER 9000 CraftyVertan IS OVER 9000 CraftyVertan IS OVER 9000 CraftyVertan IS OVER 9000 CraftyVertan IS OVER 9000 CraftyVertan IS OVER 9000 CraftyVertan IS OVER 9000 CraftyVertan IS OVER 9000
#7
11-14-2008
Default

I need a little clarification.

Any sort of information about G_d that bears relevance to our daily lives would need to come from personal accounts. No other source of information would make sense.

May I ask what you mean by other sources of information?
Cheehwawa
Level 14
Cheehwawa's Avatar
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 217
Subtract from Cheehwawa's ReputationAdd to Cheehwawa's Reputation Cheehwawa is a novice
#8
11-14-2008
Default

I do not believe in any God, nor do I have any incentive tohave faith in some sort of afterlife (though I do like the idea of a less organized "afterlife" in which all sentient beings' consciousnesses pass, like into a new universe with different laws of physics, and then when we die there, we move on to a new one and so on and so on. Ahhaa I need to put this blunt down.

I just got an idea though....... what if our universe is all encapsulated in the imagination of a supreme force... but its just a glancing thought, our universe will have banged pretty big and crunched pretty biggly in the time it took him to sneeze. Wowza. And then he'll forget all about us and move onto a new thought

Or maybe there are many universes all linked together in a plane of non-existence... the universes are all linked together through black holes (ending in white holes) that constantly keep the flow of matter through the different universes since matter cannot be created or destroyed? Or maybe whenever matter is squeezed out of a universe through a black hole, each atom from there sparks a big-bang of an infintely smaller physical universe, but if you were inside said universe it would feel like our universe.......

Why am I typing this?
GAMERTAG: Cheehwawa
Add me for customs. I play all kinds, from MLG to Tremors to Infection.



Fileshare: Linkage
Check out and rate my files, please!

Delay
Level 44
Delay's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: CA
Posts: 10,693
Subtract from Delay's ReputationAdd to Delay's Reputation Delay is legendary Delay is legendary Delay is legendary
#9
11-14-2008
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Froggy618157725 View Post
I thought of preemptively responding to this, but I decided against in. In short, no, but I prefer to.
Why do prefer to? Elaborate please.
NG
poo-tee-weet?
NG's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 30,044
Subtract from NG's ReputationAdd to NG's Reputation NG wears a live rattlesnake as a condom NG wears a live rattlesnake as a condom NG wears a live rattlesnake as a condom NG wears a live rattlesnake as a condom NG wears a live rattlesnake as a condom
Send a message via AIM to NG
#10
11-14-2008
Default

So that you can fill in the blank.

Froggy likes to play hangman.

Gad?

O

Gid?

O
|

Gud?

O
/|

GED?

O
/|\

Oh man this is getting bad.
Busy, busy, busy
 

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off