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Virtuoso
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#21
12-17-2008
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Originally Posted by Prowl View Post
The thing is though, is that the Declaration of Independence is not American law. The Constitution however, which is our law, says that American law should be secular (i.e. separation of church and state).
Duh. That's not what we're discussing is it? I thought we were discussing "how it came to be that a whole bunch of Christians in the U.S. think that our country was founded on Christianity/religion/belief in God".

Separation of Church and State is what it is. We were discussing why so many people today think it should be somewhat integrated based on the country's highly religious past. "Separation of Church and State" is to prevent things like laws against abortion and gay marriage because it's contradictory to the Bible/religious beliefs... you can't pass a law simply because the Bible says that something is wrong. The thing is, sometimes what is religiously immoral is also against the law... "Thou shalt not kill"--we do our best to put people behind bars for murder. The sad fact is... people like our friend here who want to whine and complain about what is says on our money and in a Pledge (that no one is required to recite) are missing the whole purpose of Separation of Church and State...

Over 80% of the U.S. claims Christianity as their religion... THAT's why there are so many people who look to God and religion even when considering government and politics. It's apart of them--just the same as "not believing in God" is a part of some of you. You can't deny the fact that throughout history in every civilization, "God" or some sort of religious system of beliefs has had influence, most of the time in the area of government/law.

If you really study history, the U.S. is perhaps one of the most non-religious institutions ever when it comes to being integrated with government. For a large part of history, the Roman Catholic Church ruled empires. Take a look at Huge countries like India and other places in the middle east where Islam is law. I really wish people would stop complaining about little things like this and take a look a the bigger picture--we have it good in the U.S.: QUIT BITCHING ABOUT IT!
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Wharrgarbl
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#22
12-17-2008
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Originally Posted by Virtuoso View Post
Duh. That's not what we're discussing is it? I thought we were discussing "how it came to be that a whole bunch of Christians in the U.S. think that our country was founded on Christianity/religion/belief in God".

Separation of Church and State is what it is. We were discussing why so many people today think it should be somewhat integrated based on the country's highly religious past. "Separation of Church and State" is to prevent things like laws against abortion and gay marriage because it's contradictory to the Bible/religious beliefs... you can't pass a law simply because the Bible says that something is wrong. The thing is, sometimes what is religiously immoral is also against the law... "Thou shalt not kill"--we do our best to put people behind bars for murder. The sad fact is... people like our friend here who want to whine and complain about what is says on our money and in a Pledge (that no one is required to recite) are missing the whole purpose of Separation of Church and State...

Over 80% of the U.S. claims Christianity as their religion... THAT's why there are so many people who look to God and religion even when considering government and politics. It's apart of them--just the same as "not believing in God" is a part of some of you. You can't deny the fact that throughout history in every civilization, "God" or some sort of religious system of beliefs has had influence, most of the time in the area of government/law.

If you really study history, the U.S. is perhaps one of the most non-religious institutions ever when it comes to being integrated with government. For a large part of history, the Roman Catholic Church ruled empires. Take a look at Huge countries like India and other places in the middle east where Islam is law. I really wish people would stop complaining about little things like this and take a look a the bigger picture--we have it good in the U.S.: QUIT b..chING ABOUT IT!

Jesus Christ.

Quote:
Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
Quote:
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion
Quote:
As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion
Yeah. Right. Founded as a Christian nation. Uh-huh.

One other thing -- it says "Nature's God" in the Declaration of Independence instead of "God" for a good reason. Thomas Jefferson was a Deist, and probably thought most of Christianity and the Bible in particular was crap. To see someone using that as support for the idea that the US was founded as a Christian nation...well...it's good for some lulz.
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Virtuoso
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#23
12-17-2008
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Originally Posted by Wharrgarbl View Post
Yeah. Right. Founded as a Christian nation. Uh-huh.

One other thing -- it says "Nature's God" in the Declaration of Independence instead of "God" for a good reason. Thomas Jefferson was a Deist, and probably thought most of Christianity and the Bible in particular was crap. To see someone using that as support for the idea that the US was founded as a Christian nation...well...it's good for some lulz.
Can you read? Did you read? I've never once made claim that the U.S. was founded as a Christian nation... only that references to any sort of deity or "higher being" made evident that in the time when the U.S. was founded, religion OF ANY KIND was influential and very prevalent. You cannot deny the U.S.'s religious past. Have you every truthfully gone through a college-level (perhaps even high school) early American history course and not heard a sh.tload of info about how religion was a HUGE influence (especially during colonial times)?

What I'm saying is this--RELIGIOUS INFLUENCES IN THIS COUNTRY'S PAST ARE WHAT DRIVES CHRISTIANS/RELIGIOUS PEOPLES TODAY TO BELIEVE THAT THIS NATION WAS FOUNDED ON SUCH PRINCIPLES. I am not saying that Church and State should be integrated, I'm not saying that we should shove religion down peoples' throats. What I am saying is that this is why people believe what they believe today about God's role in the founding of the United States. Some people... f..king retarded I swear.
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Last edited by Virtuoso; 12-17-2008 at 05:59 PM.
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#24
12-17-2008
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Wharrgarbl is just some snotnosed 15 year-old who read Howard Zinn and thinks he knows sh.t about history now. Just ignore him.
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Wharrgarbl
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#25
12-17-2008
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I'm not denying "the U.S.'s religious past," whatever that means. I'm disagreeing with your interpretation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Virtuoso View Post

What I'm saying is this--RELIGIOUS INFLUENCES IN THIS COUNTRIES PAST ARE WHAT DRIVES CHRISTIANS/RELIGIOUS PEOPLES TODAY TO BELIEVE THAT THIS NATION WAS FOUNDED ON SUCH PRINCIPLES.
Since you seem to preoccupied with throwing around crappy insults to make a coherent reply to my post, I'll post only a short reply to the only thing in your post that actually relates to the topic at hand.

Are you saying that "religious influences in this countries [sic] past" make people believe that this country has had religion influence it in the past? That would seem to be obvious, if those religious influences actually existed.

Which they didn't.

I dunno, I might be interpreting your words incorrectly. I think that's understandable, since your writing is unclear at best.

PS: Davo, you're a fagit, and so is Howard Zinn. I suppose next you'll be saying I think Noam Chomsky is a cool guy and doesn't afraid of anything.
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Virtuoso
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#26
12-17-2008
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Originally Posted by Wharrgarbl View Post
I'm not denying "the U.S.'s religious past," whatever that means. I'm disagreeing with your interpretation.



Since you seem to preoccupied with throwing around crappy insults to make a coherent reply to my post, I'll post only a short reply to the only thing in your post that actually relates to the topic at hand.

Are you saying that "religious influences in this countries [sic] past" make people believe that this country has had religion influence it in the past? That would seem to be obvious, if those religious influences actually existed.

Which they didn't.

I dunno, I might be interpreting your words incorrectly. I think that's understandable, since your writing is unclear at best.

PS: Davo, you're a fagit, and so is Howard Zinn. I suppose next you'll be saying I think Noam Chomsky is a cool guy and doesn't afraid of anything.
How can you deny that those influences existed? Are you in fact some snot-nosed 15-year-old little shit who doesn't know the difference between fact and what you want to believe is fact? It's basic history my friend. Since you obviously are incapable of understanding English, I'll try to put it in the most simple, retarded-baby terms as possible: People believe that this country was founded on Christian principles because that's what they're taught in school, growing up in Christian homes, or even reading a fucking history textbook or any non-fiction novel about early American history. Puritans, Protestants, Catholics--colonial settlers, right? All fall under the category of "Christianity". If you paid attention in history class at all, it would be pretty easy to get the idea that Christians started this country.
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#27
12-17-2008
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You mean...people in the US...believe things?

I'll alert the media.
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#28
12-17-2008
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Originally Posted by Wharrgarbl View Post
One other thing -- it says "Nature's God" in the Declaration of Independence instead of "God" for a good reason. Thomas Jefferson was a Deist, and probably thought most of Christianity and the Bible in particular was crap.
This is true. Jefferson once said that he could not find one redeeming quality in orthodox Christianity. As far as The Bible goes, he put together Jeffersonian Bible:
http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/.

Now I wouldn't say he thought the Bible was "crap," because he admired the ethics displayed by Jesus and he studied portions of the Bible...but he certainly didn't care for miracles, supernatural events, and other "non-feasible" events presented within the Bible.

In addition to that, those who are unaware of Deism should realize that they are in no way Protestant Christians like many people make them out to be. They do believe in a god who created the world, but that god does not intervene in the world he created. And they reject supernatural occurrences (i.e miracles, which Jefferson moved from his Bible) relating to religion. It's all about reason and the natural world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uhh Negative View Post
Protestants were persecuted in Europe
Protestants move to our continent
Protestants found country.
This is true, but it doesn't support a non-separation of church and state position. Our country was founded by many people who sought religious freedom, no doubt about it. But the religion in the places they came from was extremely oppressive and intrusive in their daily lives, much less in just a religious setting. They of all people realized that religion shouldn't get to that point of intrusiveness. Obviously we have guaranteed freedom from establishment of a state religion, and freedom to participate and partake in the religion of our choice. That's what religious freedom was about.

That's one of the reasons we succeeded as a country and others who were here before us did not. Part of Spain's downfall was the crippling effect of the Catholic Church on nearly all facets of life and colonization.
Wharrgarbl
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#29
12-17-2008
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Puritans, Protestants, Catholics--colonial settlers, right? All fall under the category of "Christianity". If you paid attention in history class at all, it would be pretty easy to get the idea that Christians started this country.
Quote:
I've never once made claim that the U.S. was founded as a Christian nation
Since you seem to be unaware of what you're actually writing, I'll explain it for you.

You are putting forth either of (or maybe both of) two ideas . That the United States' Constitution was written in accordance with Christian values, or that the people who wrote that Constitution were primarily influenced by Christianity.

Both of those are completely wrong. Regardless of how much you say that you're NOT saying the US was "founded as a Christian nation", everything you're saying is in support of that argument. It's also mostly factually wrong.

The religion of the majority of the population is completely irrelevant. Even someone as challenged as yourself should be able to comprehend how the descendants of persecuted minorities might want to safeguard minority rights from the tyranny of the majority. And that's what the Constitution is - a safeguard for minority rights. That's why the US government is expressly secular, to keep it impartial.

As I already pointed out, many of these men wouldn't even consider themselves Christian. To claim that they wrote a document based on Christian values is a bit odd.

Also, what's with all the insults? It doesn't make you seem more intelligent. It makes you seem like an uneducated moron who resorts to personal attacks because he realizes that he has no way of backing up what he says with actual facts. I also don't really understand what my age or education has to do with the facts I'm presenting here. For what it's worth, I'm probably older than you and I'm almost certainly more educated.
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#30
12-17-2008
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Originally Posted by Wharrgarbl View Post
For what it's worth, I'm probably older than you and I'm almost certainly more educated.
You are, and, especially in this field, it's like watching Gary Coleman fighting the Hulk.
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