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BiShoP
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#11
08-10-2007
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]Warning: IF your religious, and don't like people bashing it, Then don't read this. I'm warning you now.


Oooo, looks like fun. Let's dive into it!

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Ok, I do believe in a "Intelligent being who had some part in the creation of the Universe", But I do not believe in "God" or "Lords" or that the Bible is a fact sheet. If that confused you, don't worry I'll get more into that later on.
Ok, Gotcha!

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First off some religious nuts believe the Earth is only a few thousand years old. Because the Bible says "In the Beginning there was god, and bla bla". Now to point all why this is bullsh.t
Please, do so! O here it comes...

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1-The Bible was written by a Human, And not the first Human either.
Written by human, authored by God. I'm not really sure what the First Human has to do with anything?

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2-If you were one of the only people who could write, and you had NO idea what happend in the past, Wouldn't you believe the Earth was only a few "hours" old?. It's the same as if you were to wake up with no memory of your past, wouldn't you think the universe was only a few hours old?
Haven't you heard of something called oral tradition? It's essentially someone passing on history by word of mouth. A lot of history that we have in the history books were results from oral tradition.

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3-The Bible was not written by God. It was written by man, who to the bible supposedly is not perfect. And if it was written by god. Why does he not mention the future, if he is all knowing then why is there no things about abortion, and why in the bible does it say it's good to sell your daugter into slavery. If God is so "good" some things in the bible would never happen.
God = Perfect
Man = Not Perfect
God inspires Holy Scriptures, therefore, the Holy Spirit gave wisdom to writers of the text.

Also, what is this nonsense about the Bible "not mentioning the future." Hundreds of prophesies were made thousands of years before they even came true, and all of them came true 100% of the time. There are mentions of future events beyond the scope of the present time period we are in. It's mostly seen in Revelation, but some of it is also in Daniel and the Minor Prophets.

Daughter to slavery, haven't heard that one before. Where is it located?

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The Earth is not a few thousand years old, not 10,000, not 100,000, It's a few millions years old. Now the Earth is not as old as the Universe, which is a few millions years older then Earth.
Thusfar in human history, age of the earth has not really led to the catastrophic collapse of Christianity. I'm sure it survived for a reason. Age of the earth really has nothing to do with integrity of the Bible. Believe it or not, over 80% of Christians believe in an Old Earth creation account.

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Second-Why was God, Religion, and such created?
Well if your smart, and go to School you could answer this by 5th grade. It's simple God/Religion was created to control, and brain wash "stupid" civilations, allowing a single person(s) to rule without any questions. This is how people become kings, lords, and emperors. Because people believed that they could talk to "God". And if the King didn't like you, God didn't like you....Then you would burn in hell, and Hell was evil.
O really! Your logic is undeniable!

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Here's a little example of what I mean

Random Guy-"Oh Yea, Whats your name"

Random Guy 2-"Oh, Marcus, You know where we are"

Random guy-"Oh Yea....Egypt"

Random Guy 2-"Oh how we get here, Whos in control"

Random Guy-'Oh me, See theres tihs big guy "God" who made the universe. He talks to me, Says I'm in charge"

Random Guy 2-"Oh I must tell the rest this, Oh great one"
The most intelligent dialogue I have ever seen! Without flaw whatsoever!

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Something really cheesy....yet It's probably how it went down, in a few places. Either way one person told one, or a bunch of people he was talking to "god" and people bowed to him. Humans are f.cking stupid back them.
So, humans are so stupid that they developed civilization, farming methods, society, culture, o and not to mention, BUILT THE PYRAMIDS. Totally retarded! What imbeciles would do such a thing?

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See wanna know why I think this, and you should too. It didn't just happen in one area, in almost every other civilization the same story.
"I am man, Talks to God, You must obey".

Or something very close to those words.

And since Humans after a while got so use, and controlled by this bullsh.t, Kings become more powerful, more demanding, and had less to worry about. Once you brain wash enough generations, it's a simple rule. And religion was the best way. If everyone was to believe that an all mighty being would kill them, and make them burn in hell for not doing what "he/she" wanted then they would agree to rule.
Here's some information I found while surfin' the blue web. You might find it interesting.

"Science rose in the West, not in the East. Why?"

"Whitehead and Oppenheimer insisted that modern science could not have been born except in a Christian milieu."

"Many pioneering scientists were not only theists, but Christians:
Newton, Pasteur, Kepler, Paschal, Fleming, Edwards."

"Concepts conducive to scientific inquiry were expressly Christian:

1. Positive attitude toward the world.
2. Awareness of order (i.e. cause/effect, cf. Rom. 1:20).
3. Views of man as a superintendent of nature.
4. Positive attitude toward progress ("Have dominion . . ." [Gen. 1:28ff])"

"The Development of Higher Education:
1. The Puritans were 95 per cent literate.
2. The University movement and the quest for knowledge (Berkeley, Descartes, the British Empiricists, Locke & Reid).
3. 100 of the first 110 universities in America were founded for the express purpose of propagating the Christian religion.
4. The American university emerged from American Seminaries (Witherspoon, Princeton; Timothy Dwight, Yale)."

"Christianity and the Arts: the influence has been so broad as to be inestimable."

"The history of Christianity is inseparable from the history of Western culture and of Western society. For almost a score of centuries Christian beliefs, principles, and ideals have colored the thoughts and feelings of Western man. The traditions and practices have left an indelible impress not only on developments of purely religious interest, but on virtually the total endeavor of man. This has been manifest in art and literature, science and law, politics and economics, and, as well, in love and war. Indeed, the indirect and unconscious influence Christianity has often exercised in avowedly secular matters--social, intellectual, and institutional--affords striking proof of the dynamic forces that have been generated by the faith over the millenniums. Even those who have contested its claims and rejected its tenets have been affected by what they opposed. Whatever our beliefs, all of us today are inevitable heirs to this abundant legacy; and it is impossible to understand the cultural heritage that sustains and conditions our lives without considering the contributions of Christianity."

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Sadly people didn't even think of it, yet maybe thankfully they knew nothing better. So yet maybe it wasn't that bad because they were so "Naive" that well they didn't care. Yet either way, it was still horrible. I mean think about the father who had a 15 year old daugter "sleeping" with some 40-50 year old man because he was "Holy"....It happened, Some religions believe it's fine for a 50 year old man to "sleep" with a 15 year old girl.
What religions are those? Please, elaborate instead of making plain generalizations.

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Other Bad Things Religion did_

1-Crusades-A few million innocent Jews killed. I learned that Chistians and Muslims (Seperetly of course) and either A-Kill all the Jews or B-Ask them to convert, Which if they did not...Kill, Rape, Burn the town.

2-Spanish Inquisition-Pretty much the same bullsh.t, Except it was supposedly more brutal, and used more torture, and nasty methods. People of other relgiions were killed and tortured.

3-The Holocaust-Relgion based...We all know what happend here

4-9/11

And i'm sure there are other things in history which is religous based. Almost every war, genocide, or anything "bad" is relgious based, everything except disease.


If you want to employ the use of Mill's philosophy, using the "greastest happiness principle," humanity has been deemed to be more pleasurable in totality than harmful. I listed above all the contributions JUST Christianity has made to the world through science and other various subjects. Other religions have also contributed.

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Religion should....

Die off!
It has no place in today's world. People of today should be smart enough to realize it's all bullsh.t. Faith is a good thing, but giving your life for some "god" is stupid. Want to be faithful, have fun with your friends, and family...Don't bore them with some book written 1000 years ago, with things in it that have no means in todays world. I'm not really an atheist, Because like I said I do believe in a "Intelgent being who helped create the universe"...Yet this person does not control your life. And praying to him/her is not going to do anything.


I bet if relgion died off, The world would become a better place, ironically. Because Like I said before, tons of bad things in history were the fault of religion.
Tons of bad things were the result of religion. Before making pure generalizations, try looking beyond the scope of your own indifference and see that there has also been incredible human advances made as a result of religion. Without religion, most of us probably wouldn't be here arguing about this topic.
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#12
08-16-2007
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Originally Posted by BiShoP View Post
Tons of bad things were the result of religion. Before making pure generalizations, try looking beyond the scope of your own indifference and see that there has also been incredible human advances made as a result of religion. Without religion, most of us probably wouldn't be here arguing about this topic.
NO sh.t SHERLOCK. If there was no religion you would NEVER be here arguing about religion because it wouldn't exist. YOU FAIL MORON. I also applaud your effort to fight his arguments with more unintelligence, your comebacks to certain parts of his argument are completely hypocritical of your other comebacks. I do find it hilarious that you took the time to answer all of his argument and you basically said nothing. Your arguments about oral history and how the bible is interpreted are unbelievable. I can't believe you had the nerve and stupidity to say that 100% of the future predictions in the bible came true, and are going to come true. Not to mention you said that there were hundreds of predictions of the future in the bible that came true...um name five major predictions and please make sure they are clear, because I don't want to hear about the bullsh.t predictions that related to future events if you rearrange the sentence and add new words. If its anything like those bullsh.t Nostradamus predictions you can go f.ck yourself.

BTW: Don't respond to a statement that you think is generalized, with a comeback that is even more generalized and expected from someone with an uncreative mind. You did it at least 3 times.

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Last edited by LeeZy; 08-16-2007 at 02:35 AM.
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#13
08-16-2007
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I have a nose for fallacies.

I smell slippery slope, red herring, appeal to authority, appeal to tradition, and a ton of strawman.

Anyone else smell it?
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BiShoP
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#14
08-16-2007
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NO sh.t SHERLOCK. If there was no religion you would NEVER be here arguing about religion because it wouldn't exist.
There's no need for anger. I was stating that humanity wouldn't be in the state it currently is in without religion. You wouldn't be here, I wouldn't be here, in existence on this planet most likely without religion.

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YOU FAIL MORON.
Again, I'd advise you to edit your post, because there's no need for name calling.


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I also applaud your effort to fight his arguments with more unintelligence, your comebacks to certain parts of his argument are completely hypocritical of your other comebacks.
Calling me generalized is fairly ironic when you read what you just wrote. Where was I not specific? I talked about philosophical goodness through Mill and discussed positive benefits of Christianity.

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I do find it hilarious that you took the time to answer all of his argument and you basically said nothing. Your arguments about oral history and how the bible is interpreted are unbelievable. I can't believe you had the nerve and stupidity to say that 100% of the future predictions in the bible came true, and are going to come true.
Scientific reasoning 101 - If something happens based on a hypothesis in your experimentation, it can most likely be regarded scientific fact once it's verified multiple times.

I really find no difference between this approach, using the multiple experimentations as solid proof that something is true and seeing a prophetic pattern within the Bible. If someone claims something will happen with precise detail over 2000 years in the future, the only conclusion you can come to is that those prophecies relating to future evens which haven't been fulfilled yet must be fulfilled at sometime in the future.

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Not to mention you said that there were hundreds of predictions of the future in the bible that came true...um name five major predictions and please make sure they are clear, because I don't want to hear about the bullsh.t predictions that related to future events if you rearrange the sentence and add new words.
Sure thing:
#1.

(Prophecy)Isaiah 7:14 - "Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel."
(Fulfilled)Matthew 1:18,25 - "This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary...was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit... But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus."

#2.

(Prophecy)Jeremiah 23:1 - "The days are coming, declares the LORD, 'when I will raise up to David a righteous Branch, a King who will reign wisely and do what is just and right in the land.'"
(Fulfilled)Luke 3:23-31 - "Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli...the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David."

#3.

(Prophecy)Micah 5:2 - "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times."
(Fulfilled)Matthew 2:1 - "After Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the time of King Herod, Magi from the east came to Jerusalem."

#4.

(Prophecy)Isaiah 33:22 - "For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; it is he who will save us."
(Fulfilled)John 5:30 - "By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me."

#5.

(Prophecy)Isaiah 40:3 - "A voice of one calling: 'In the desert prepare the way for the LORD; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God.'"
(Fulfilled)Matt. 3:1-2 - "In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the Desert of Judea and saying, 'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.'"

For the sake of it, I'll even throw in a couple more!

#6.

(Prophecy)Zech. 12:10 - "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one mourns for an only son."
(Fulfilled)John 19:34 - "Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water."

#7. The most compelling

(Prophecy)Psalm 22:1, Psalm 22:11-18 - "For the director of music. To the tune of "The Doe of the Morning." A psalm of David. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?...Do not be far from me, for trouble is near and there is no one to help. Many bulls surround me; strong bulls of Bashan. Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing."
(Fulfilled)
Luke 23:33 - "When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals -- one on his right, the other on his left."
John 19:33 - "But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs."
John 19:23-24 - "When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the undergarment remaining. This garment was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom. 'Let's not tear it,' they said to one another. 'Let's decide by lot who will get it.' This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled which said, 'They divided my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.' So this is what the soldiers did."

The following probabilities are taken from Peter Stoner in Science Speaks (Moody Press, 1963) to show that coincidence is ruled out by the science of probability. Stoner says that by using the modern science of probability in reference to eight prophecies, "we find that the chance that any man might have lived down to the present time and fulfilled all eight prophecies is 1 in 10^17." That would be 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. In order to help us comprehend this staggering probability, Stoner illustrates it by supposing that "we take 10^17 silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas. They will cover all of the state two feet deep.

"Now mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly, all over the state. Blindfold a man and tell him that he can travel as far as he wishes, but he must pick up one silver dollar and say that this is the right one. What chance would he have of getting the right one? Just the same chance that the prophets would have had of writing these eight prophecies and having them all come true in any one man."

Stoner considers 48 prophecies and says, "we find the chance that any one man fulfilled all 48 prophecies to be 1 in 10^157, or 1 in

100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000.

The estimated number of electrons in the universe is around 10^79. It should be quite evident that Jesus did not fulfill the prophecies by accident."

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If its anything like those bullsh.t Nostradamus predictions you can go f.ck yourself.
Nostradamus was less than 3% correct in his prophetic visions. Biblical writers were 100% correct thousands of years before Christ even came.

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BTW: Don't respond to a statement that you think is generalized, with a comeback that is even more generalized and expected from someone with an uncreative mind. You did it at least 3 times.
I'm still wondering when you are actually going to give me any hard data or evidence that suggests I'm wrong. Maybe you should point the finger at yourself rather than point the blame at me for not being specific. I answered everything that was objective in his post with objective data. So far, in this post of your's I haven't seen any!

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Sweet, I win! JK

PS - Don't bring hatred and violent language to this forum. It makes you sound less intelligent! Thanks
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#15
08-16-2007
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Originally Posted by NiceGuy View Post
I have a nose for fallacies.

I smell slippery slope, red herring, appeal to authority, appeal to tradition, and a ton of strawman.

Anyone else smell it?
Red Herring, LOL! What are doing; fishing in Oregon?
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#16
08-16-2007
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Originally Posted by HalfJawArbiter9 View Post
1-Crusades-A few million innocent Jews killed. I learned that Chistians and Muslims (Seperetly of course) and either A-Kill all the Jews or B-Ask them to convert, Which if they did not...Kill, Rape, Burn the town.

I'm gonna go ahead and correct you there. When you think of the Crusades, atrocities against the Jews were never one of the big problems. You have to remember that the city is described as being the birth place of all 3 major religions. So everyone wanted a piece.

Secondly, converting the enemy wasn't at all the goal. The Christians simply killed everyone else. In fact the Muslims who ruled Jerusalem at the time desperately tried to protect the Jews there, but even though the Crusades were never at all aimed against the Jews, that didn't stop atrocities caused by the crusaders against the Jews (and of course specifically against the Muslims). In fact not only were the Jews were attacked by Crusaders in the Holy land, but In Germany, Hungary, England, France, Palestine, and Syria as well.

Basically the Crusades went like this, the Pope wakes up one beautiful morning, yawns a little, gives a little stretch, and finally says "I think it's time for another Crusade!"

The Crusade is launched, the Christians attack Jerusalem, causing thousands of horrible atrocities and millions of deaths, they take the city by storm, destroying many buildings and churches, and killing every Muslim (and a lot of Jews) they see.

A little while later, the Muslims counter attack, and launch a significantly less violent assault. Take the city, and try desperately to rebuild and made a peace treaty with the Christians. Which is why Muslim Kings were much more popular then anyone else. (Specifically Saladin, who allowed every Christian to leave the city unharmed and gave them protection until they reached their ships, even though the previous Crusaders had murdered every Muslim they saw).
I know this makes Muslims look like the fantastic good guys, but that's the way it was).

The Process continued 11 more times with the Pope calling another Crusade, breaking another peace treaty with the Muslims, and causing more deaths...



Anyway as for your thread...

Yea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoGuff
...you're a terrorist sympathizer. I'd rather be an idiot if that's the choice. At least I'd be a person, though stupid, who is at least on the right side of morality. God doesn't care if you're stupid or not, he does care if you are evil or not.

Last edited by General AI; 08-16-2007 at 04:18 PM.
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#17
08-16-2007
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bishop, thank you for giving me predictions in the bible that are only related to future biblical events. You gave me predictions that only someone who believed in god/jesus would think true. If I don't believe that anything in the new testament is true then all of those amazing predictions would be void. A more groundbreaking prediction would be the birth or death of someone known, who is proven to exist(unlike Jesus who could have possibly existed, but he might not have been what the bible says he was.), or the destruction of something that we know exists, etc.

I don't need hard facts to tell you that the bible isn't 100% correct, and I really couldn't even if I wanted to, the one thing I can say is that oral history(which you brought up prior) only supports the idea of the bible being flawed, and changed over time. Everyone has heard of the game telephone, and should have an understanding about what it is trying to teach, and show you.

Now for the language, and minor abuse I'm sorry, but I disagree with the idea that religion has helped humanity advance. Even though many wars were fought over religion(most were a very long time ago), I still believe that those wars would still have happened because it seems that man always craves more(usually land and power). I find it very difficult to find any war that was fought strictly over religion, and while they were fighting they made huge advances that have made humanity and the world what it is today.
Example: Even though Jews were a big part of WWII, Hitler was far more interested in world domination, and I use WWII because during that time period, there was arguably the biggest surge in human advances, and technology. Even though there have been many wars that were fought over religion, most seem to be mediaeval, or on a very small scale.(The crusades, and the Palestinian and Israelight conflict)

Now without being a d.ck, please enlighten me with a prediction that would be true from anyones standpoint, and please give me religious wars or events that led to groundbreaking human advances.
us, for having a good debate!

BTW: NiceGuy is actually saying something, those aren't random phrases or words.
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Last edited by LeeZy; 08-16-2007 at 02:09 PM.
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#18
08-16-2007
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Originally Posted by LeeZy View Post
bishop, thank you for giving me predictions in the bible that are only related to future biblical events.
Circular logic is still logic!
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#19
08-16-2007
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"Norman Geisler explains Ezekiel's prediction that the city of Tyre "would be destroyed and its ruins cast into the sea (26:2). This provoked scoffing because, when Nebuchadnezzar destroyed Tyre, he left the ruins right where they fell -- on the land. But 200 years later, Alexander the Great attacked Tyre and the inhabitants withdrew to an island just off the coast for safety. In order to reach them, Alexander threw all of the debris, stones, timbers, dust, and everything else, into the sea to build a causeway that would reach the island." If events so far in the future can be accurately predicted, certainly the events of the past have been accurately recorded!"

Although it doesn't necessarily point to a specific person, it points to a specific historical event that definitely occured.

Here's an interesting one: It's a little bit of a read though:

There is an interesting prophecy about the Eastern Gate in Jerusalem and some attempts to prevent its fulfillment.

The Eastern gate of Jerusalem, also called the Golden Gate, is located along the long eastern wall of the Temple Mount. This gate has been sealed for many years. We Christians believe that it is to be the entrance of Christ upon His return. As stated in Ezekiel 44:1-2, NIV translation:

"Then the man brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, the one facing east, and it was shut. The LORD said to me, "This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered through it."

True to the prophecy of Ezekiel, this gate has remained shut for a very long time.

The gate was sealed some centuries ago by non-Jewish workmen who were commissioned to rebuild the ancient city walls. It has been claimed that a graveyard was constructed in front of this gate, by non-Jews, to prevent the prophecy from ever being fulfilled. Apparently, their belief was that a holy man would never walk across a graveyard to get to the gate and therefore this prophecy involving a Jewish Messiah would never be fulfilled.

Twice in the last century an attempt to open the sealed Eastern Gate has failed. I found the following in Grant Jeffrey’s book "Heaven, The Last Frontier." The first attempt was on December 9th 1917, when the Grand Mufti, the Arab leader of Jerusalem, tried to open this gate. He had ordered the other gates to Jerusalem sealed to deter the approaching allied Expeditionary Army led by the British General Allenby. This was back in the early 1900s when the British were dismantling the Ottoman Empire, which had ruled over the land of Israel for 400 years.

But, the Grand Mufti did need to have one gate remain open, so he ordered his workmen to open the mysterious sealed gate. As the workmen picked up their sledgehammers, Allenby's airplane flew over the city, telling the Arabs to flee. Miraculously, without a shot being fired, the opposing soldiers fled the city. The city was delivered into the hands of the Britain, which one month earlier had promised the Jews the right to re-establish sovereignty over their ancient homeland, via the famous Balfour Declaration. The workmen fearfully put down their sledgehammers and the gate remained sealed as Ezekiel had prophesied.

Then, in 1967, the ancient prophecy was fulfilled again. But first, a little history: In 1948, the Jews declared sovereignty over a portion of their ancient homeland. In retaliation, King Hussein of Jordan, who had control over the ancient city of Jerusalem, including the Temple Mount, forbade the Jews from worshipping at their sacred Western Wall. This was the first time in centuries that the Jews did not have access to the Western Wall, which is a remnant of the wall around the second Temple, which was destroyed by the Romans some 1900 years ago.

King Hussein decided to build a hotel for Arab pilgrims on this section of the Western Wall, closing off this area to Jewish worship forever. The planned hotel was to be built over the Magreb Gate, which Moslems used to enter the Temple Mount. So, the King needed to open another gate so that Moslems could get to the El Aksa Mosque, which was built by Moslems on the site of the Jewish Temple Mount.

In violation of the prophecy, he ordered his workmen to open the sealed Eastern Gate. But, during this time, Arabs were also preparing to attack Israel, hoping to wipe out the Jewish state. And the Jews were about to preemptively respond to this planned attack. On June 5th of 1967, as the workmen prepared their air-hammers to shatter the huge stones sealing the Eastern Gate, an intimidating array of Israeli aircraft flew overhead. The Six Day War had begun, and the workmen put down their tools.

At the end of the Six Day War, the workmen were unable to resume their project because the Jews had managed to recapture their ancient capital of Jerusalem. True to Ezekiel’s prophecy, The Eastern Gate is still sealed. The gate will remain sealed until the day when the promised Messiah will enter into His Kingdom.
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LeeZy
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#20
08-17-2007
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Now thats what I am talking about!!! I've heard of the first story, but I was unaware of it being predicted in the bible, but I'll take your word for it. I found the second prediction, and history of the Eastern Gate to be very interesting. Thank you for enlightening me about those predictions.

BTW: I feel that you and me actually had a legit argument, over some of the most controversial topics ever, and while we debated neither one of us preached, or tried to force each others beliefs upon each other.
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